First Baptist, New Castle, Ind
Pastor Jerry Ingalls, 12-26-2010
http://jerryingallsblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/giving-your-treasures-covenant-renewal.html
Ingalls: We are going to start the covenant renewal by making a covenant with God to be generous with the material blessings He has provided for us in our lives.
Kelly: Are you attempting to place the New Covenant Church under the Old Covenant? According to Exodus 19:5-6 the Gentiles and Church never were under that Covenant.
Ingalls: Acts 2:42-47
Kelly: (2:43) The apostles’ doctrine did not include tithing to them. It was illegal before Calvary and not practiced by or commanded to the Church afterwards. (2:44-45) God did not command the early church to live communally and the event was not repeated. (2:46) Since the Jewish Christians continued to worship in the Temple and were “zealous of the Law” (21:20-21), they likely continued to support the Temple system with any tithes and offerings.
Ingalls: “We each must be willing to allow the Holy Spirit to probe into the inner chambers of our hearts to illumine the true state of our loyalties.
Kelly: Then study this doctrine with intensity with your church and leave no stone unturned.
Ingalls: THE MOTIVATION OF OUR GIVING IS GRATITUDE FOR GOD'S CHRISTMAS GIFT!
Kelly: That was only true of free-will giving. Tithes of food from inside God’s holy land did not involve gratitude. They were stone cold hard LAW like taxes are to us.
Ingalls: We do not give in order to be right with God! The Bible teaches in 2 Corinthians 8:9 …
Kelly: You freely switch from quoting tithing texts to quoting freewill giving texts. This is poor hermeneutics. There is a difference.
Ingalls: We give all that we have out of sheer gratitude for the indescribable Gift of peace with God through the Son of God, Jesus Christ!
Kelly: True only of freewill giving principles.
Ingalls: THE MOTIVATION OF OUR GIVING IS A DEEPER RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD!
Kelly: Never true for tithing.
Ingalls: Regarding giving of our treasures, God gave a very clear command in the Old Testament.
Kelly: Not to “us.” The Old Covenant with over 600 commands was only given to Old Covenant national Israel.
Ingalls: Leviticus 27:30
Kelly: (1) Verse 34 limits this only to Israel. (2) "A tithe [a tenth] of everything from the land” is correct. (3) “it is holy to the LORD" is only true if it comes from inside God’s HOLY land. Tithes could not come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside Israel. Period.
Ingalls: In the Old Covenant, giving was managed by a detailed and thoroughly examined commandment …
Kelly: Yes, Numbers 18. (1) Only food from inside Israel, (2) only to Levite servants to the priests, (3) priests only received one tenth of one per cent, (4) tithe recipients could not own or inherit land in Israel and (5) only to support the OT Levites and priests.
Ingalls: … to give 10% of all that God had provided.
Kelly: Wrong. Only food miraculously increased by God inside His holy land. Money was required for head taxes and vows but never for tithes.
Ingalls: Luke 11:42
Kelly: You ignore the first rule of hermeneutics. See also Mt 23:23. (1) Context is “matters of the law” before Calvary. (2) Addressed to “you, scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites” who “sit in Moses’ seat” (Mt 23:2-3) as interpreters of the Law. (3) Before Calvary, therefore still in Old Covenant context. (4) Not to the Church or Gentiles. (5) Jesus did not accept tithes. And (6) no church obeys Jesus by collecting tithes of garden herbs.
Ingalls: I do not believe that Jesus removes the practice of tithing as some would debate, but He fulfills it
Kelly: (1) The covenant supported by tithing was removed. (2) The Temple they worked in was removed. (3) The Levite servants to the priests were removed. (4) The priests who received 1% were removed. (5) Preachers now own land which is contrary to tithing laws.
Ingalls: I want to take this statement [about the Sabbath] and apply it to the purposes of tithing because the same principle that Jesus Christ applies to the fulfillment of one aspect of the Law applies to the entire Law:
Kelly: According to Galatians 3:10-13, those under one part of the Law are under the entire law.
Ingalls: Tithing was instituted to set us free
Kelly: No. Tithing was instituted to support Levite workers and priest ministers who could not own land in Israel per Numbers 18:21-28.
Ingalls: Jesus rebukes the Jewish religious leaders of the first century because they had twisted their observance of the Law
Kelly: How very true. He was not speaking to the New Covenant church. He was discussing “mattes of the law” in Mt 23:23.
Ingalls: Jesus removed the stumbling blocks by fulfilling the Law through grace!
Kelly: According to Eph 2:13-17 and Col 2:13-17 the “stumbling blocks” included all laws which separated Jews from Gentiles, including tithing and Sabbath observance. He returned both to the Abrahamic covenant of grace.
Ingalls: Here it is: Tithing flows out of the heart of God for man
Kelly: No. Not “for man” – only for the Hebrew man who was a food producer living inside God’s HOLY land of Israel. God never expected holy tithes to come off defiled pagan Gentile land.
Ingalls: Luke 21:1-4 poor widow
Kelly: The poor widow was giving a sacrificial freewill offering. She was not paying a tithe.
Ingalls: Jesus is not canceling the call to tithe; rather He is intensifying it to the extreme.
Kelly: No texts to validate this.
Ingalls: THE MOTIVATION OF OUR GIVING IS TO DEVOTE OURSELVES TO GOD'S KINGDOM!
Kelly: No. It is in response to Christ’s freewill sacrificial gift to us. And it is in response to sermons encouraging us to become soul winners.
Ingalls: 1 Chronicles 22:5
Kelly: Read 1 Chronicles 23 to 26. The Levites and priests who received tithes were also political workers for the king. They must have also worked many other jobs because they were skilled in many crafts.
Ingalls: The stones of the house of the LORD are the people saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ!
Kelly: Since both the NT Temple and priesthood consist of individual believers, then tithing makes no sense. We do not tithe to ourselves.
Ingalls: David was told he could not build the house of the LORD, but he devoted himself to investing his time, treasures, and talents to building it;
Kelly: Old Covenant tithes could not be used for Temple or building construction or maintenance. David gave freewill offering.
Ingalls: 2 Chronicles 31:4-5
Kelly: Why did you quote this? If proves (1) that Solomon’s Temple had no storage rooms for tithes and (2) that Hezekiah erred when he commanded the people to bring the tithes to Jerusalem. Read verses 15-19. The majority of the tithes were shipped back into the Levitical cities where they belonged and were needed for food. Nehemiah 10:37b-38 is greatly ignored today.
Ingalls: 2 Corinthians 8:2-4
Kelly: Again you switch back and forth between OT tithing texts and NT freewill giving texts as if you do not know the difference.
Ingalls: Study Malachi 3:8-12. What is significant about this passage? How does this apply to the individual disciple in regards to the testimony of the Church to the nations? Are you living in fulfillment of this promise? If not, what is preventing you from beginning today?
Kelly: (1) The significance of Malachi is its position under the Law as in Mal 4:4; Lev 27:34 and Num 18:21-28. The priests of 1:6-13; 2:1-10 and 2:13-to-end were guilty of stealing the tithe and had been cursed.
(2) It has no relevance to New Covenant Christians. OT tithes were never used for evangelism of Gentiles and there is no precedent.
(3) Christians are not supposed to attempt to obey Old Covenant Law and ignore better New Covenant laws.
(4) Nobody tithes today. Paul warned of placing yourself under the Law in Galatians 3:1-5.
Ingalls: Study 2 Corinthians 9:6-14.
Kelly: These are sound post-Calvary freewill giving principles blessed by the Holy Spirit after Calvary for the Church.
Ingalls: How are you doing with financial stewardship?
Kelly: If YOU have a small staff and many “tithers,” YOU have the most to gain from teaching “tithing.”
Ingalls: In what areas of your life do you feel you are being either obedient or disobedient to God's call for financial stewardship and generosity?
Kelly: Do you teach that the first whole Levitical tithe should go to servants of the OT priests per Num 18:21-24 and Neh 10:37b-38? Do you own land contrary to Numbers 18? Are you among the poorest of the land as required of tithe recipients?
Ingalls: Find the Scriptural references to support your beliefs and self-assessments and then discuss with a mentor or accountability partner to help you take the next steps.
Kelly: Yes. In context and you “rightly divide” the Word according to its covenant.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Monday, December 27, 2010
Tuesday, November 30, 2010
Reply to Change Worth Making, 11-3--2010
http://changeworthmaking.wordpress.com/
CWM: It is incumbent upon any man asserting any truth to be able to biblically defend that truth, and do so in a manner that is not unbecoming of the honest student of God’s Word.
Kelly: Amen, amen, amen.
CWM: While I have rarely preached on the subject over the last few years, I have at this place sought to stand up for this principle.
Kelly: This is a half truth and still a total lie. Your last statement says that you teach tithing to all new members!
CWM: Primarily because I have a personal resentment toward any insinuation that preachers who teach the tithe are less than honest in their ministry, or are disingenuous, or should be labeled as a false teacher.
Kelly: Most are “less than honest because they will not seriously study the subject and diaalog with us about it.” You are dishonest by deleting my posts.
CWM: While some may disagree with our conclusions about the teachings of the text, it is irresponsible to imply that all preachers who teach the tithe to their people are dishonest with their motives, ignorant about the scriptures or are somehow not on the up and up.
Kelly: “Somehow not on the up and up is my conclusion” – including and especially YOU.
CWM: Now that being said, I once again, and probably for the last time (Lord willing), want to explain the principle of the tithe rightly divided and clearly proclaimed.
Kelly: Good riddance. You have not made any sense up to now.
CWM: 1.) The Definition of the Tithe. First of all, when we are dealing with the Biblical text of the “tithe” we must not fall for the bait and switch. We must see it’s plain simple definition. The Biblical word, “tithe”, in Hebrew, Greek, English, Latin, and Piglatin speaks expressly of one-tenth, or 10%.
Kelly: YOU are the one who has made the “bait and switch.” You have changed the Bibilical CONTEXT of the tithe for a non-biblical context. What are your motives? Why have you attempted to change the obvious biblical usage of the word “tithe”?
CWM: Ten percent of mashed potatoes is a “tithe” of mashed potatoes. Ten percent of all of the left handed footballs in the world, is a “tithe” of all the left handed footballs in the world. Ten percent of all the dill pickles in the United States is a “tithe” of all the dill pickles in the United States. I think you get the point. In order to rightly understand the concept, you must stick with the clear meaning of the word.
Kelly: You have just DISPROVEN your own point! The Bible does not speak of “mashed potatoes,” “left handed footballs” or “dill pickles.” God’s Word always speaks of FOOD which has only been increaded within His own HOLY land of Israel.
CWM: The problem is that the opponents of the tithe principle do not do that. They attempt to use God’s word and their own dictionary.
Kelly: Our own “dictionary” consists of 16 texts from God’s Word which describe the CONTENTS of the tithe as ONLY FOOD which God has miraculously increased from inside Holy Israel. Biblical tithes could not come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside Israel. Why do you not try to refute that?
CWM: While the word for “tithe” speaks of an amount, they continually want to tie to a “medium”. They demand that the tithe is always tied to “flocks, fruits, herds, produce, grain, etc.” While the word deals with a percentage, they want it to deal with produce. Whatever the motive, they seem to very legalistically see the tithe concept tied expressly to a medium when that is simply not the case.
Kelly: We do not “demand” our defihition. God’s Word LIMITS it to what we see from studying His Word. You would place blinders on parishones and tell them to listen to you instead of the Word.
CWM: This is another example of what I mean when I say, we do not use the law to teach the tithe, it is they who use the law to avoid it.
Kelly: Excuse me, but the definition of the word “tithe” from Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Malachi and Matthew MUST be the definition of the Law since those passages are all under the Law. You would never win this kind of argument in an honest uncensored debate.
CWM: The fact is that the word is speaking of the “amount of a medium“, not the “amount AND medium.” It is the legalistic approach that demands that the definition of the word include the medium of whatever context it is nestled in.
Kelly: It is the legal definition given to the word “tithe” by the Law of which it is commanded and enforced. Go into a grocery store and ask for a “tenth.” The clerk will then ask you “A tenth of what.” When God’s OT workforce, the Levites, asked for a “tenth,” the people knew that it was a “tenth of food” from God’s HOLY land as the Law defined. They did not bring money or food from Gentile lands.
CWM: For example, their favorite passage of scripture to tear apart; Malachi 3:8 “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. “ Note what the scripture does not say. The scripture does not say that they were giving “nothing”. The rebuke of Israel was not that they weren’t giving something, the rebuke was that they weren’t giving the right “percentage.” I find it strange that were the tithe tied to the medium, the Lord did not specify which medium it was that they were holding back.
Kelly: This is plain stupid! The text you stopped in front of says “… that there may be FOOD in my house” and the following texts refer to “grasshoppers” and fields of FOOD. Clearly the tithe was always only FOOD.
CWM: The fact is that His rebuke was a rebuke of the amount of their giving not the medium of their giving.
Kelly: Nonsense. Read the texts and let them tell you what they are talking about: Mal 3:10-12.
CWM: Furthermore, 10 percent is 10 percent, before the law, during the law, and after the law. Whatever else may be said, 10 per cent has not changed mathematically.
Kelly: “Travel” means the same whether it is travel by foot, horse, train or airplane. The word itself does not explain what kind of travel. Tithe before the Law was a pagan spoils of war tithe in obedience to the law of the land. Tithe during the law was defined by the law as a holy tithe from a holy land. There is no tithing after the law because both the Temple and priesthood are now within the believer. Even Jews today do not tithe because there is no Temple or priesthood.
CWM: Now I have not addressed the “compulsion” to tithe yet, merely that the word tithe means 10 percent, and ten percent alone, regardless of medium, and regardless of dispensation.
Kelly: Do you honestly see no difference between spoils of war and food from God’s HOLY land?
CWM: 2.) The Dispensation of the Tithe. The next question that we must deal with is the “when” of the tithe. For the sake of clarity I am going to leave the Mosaic Law out of this.
Kelly: Yes, of course. Leave out the 16 texts which describe the CONTENTS of the HOLY tithe from Leviticus to Luke. That is dishonest.
CWM: Of course we are given the example of Abraham giving 10 percent of the spoils of war to Melchizedek long before the Mosaic law was ever given.
Kelly: It was actually a pre-circumcized Abram who had learned tithing while in Babylon as part of pagan worship.
CWM: Now those who reject this as any form of compulsion quickly point to the medium of the tithe to say it has nothing to do with us. Once again, that’s a bait and switch discussion.
Kelly: It was a form of compulsion – pagan law of the land which required tithes of spoils of war to one’s local king-priest. You are the one ignoring the facts. What do you think was happening in Gen 14:21? The law of the land was involved in the conversation. If the 90% was controlled by pagan tradition, so was the 10%.
CWM: While we want to talk about the “tithe” of the treasure, they want to talk about the “kind of the treasure, or the source of the treasure.”
Kelly: The first rule of hermeneutics is context.
CWM: Now whatever else may be said, had Abraham had ten thousand bucket fulls of chicken, he would have given Melchizedek 10 percent. Had Abraham had 4o million U.S. dollars, He would have given Melchizedek a tithe of that too. The Bible says very plainly that Abram “gave him tithes of all.” (uh – hmm – amount, not medium)
Kelly: No, read your Bible. It says that Abram “gave the tenth of the spoils” in Hebrews 7:4. (uh-hmmm – amount of the medium)
CWM: Let’s not miss the example given. We have the High Priest of God receiving a “tenth” of the increase of Abraham, the “Friend of God” Prior to the law, and not under any legal compulsion. Freely given without hesitation.
Kelly: The Bible does not say that Abram “freely gave” anything. You have changed God’s Word. Why didn’t Abram give a tithe of what he received from Pharoah in Genesis 12?
CWM: What then does that have to do with now? Hebrews 7:8 – “And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.” Hebrews 7:8 is post law, and under grace.
Kelly: Hebrews 7:8 As far as the Jewish Christians in Judea were concerned around AD65, they were still tithing to the Temple system per Acts 21:20-21 because they were all “zealous of the law.” The Episele to the Hebrews was written to wean them from the Law. Any OT tithe or offering was considered a gift to God (Christ).
You keep ignoring the very palin teaching of Hebrews 7:12-18. The law of tithing (from 7:5) “muct be changed” (7:12) and that “change” was the “annulment of the commandment going before” (of tithing from 7:5) per 7:18. Why do you tithe teachers never attempt to explain 7:10-18? Sounds dishonest to me.
CWM: …Yet here in Hebrews 7:8, the writer, (Luke in my opinion) explains the difference between the earthly priests and our Great High Priest. In his discourse concerning Christ being our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, and not after the order of the Levites, expresses the fact that “here, men that die receive tithes” referencing the law, and the Old Covenant. “but there he receiveth them of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.” “There” being reference to priestly order of Melchizedek which comes to our Great High priest Jesus Christ, of which it is clearly taught that He that is living is still receiving “tithes”. (amounts, not mediums)
Our Great High Priest, “post law,” separate from the Levitical compulsion is pictured for us as being receptive to the “tithes” of increases.
Kelly: You would make a great Ebionite. The Jewish Christians of Jerusalem, Acts 15 and Acts 21 evntually rejected Paul completely and set up their own narrow-minded legalistic church which survived for several centuries. They would have certaily rejected a Gentile such as Luke. Again you ignore the logic of 7:12-18.
CWM: 3.) The Dedication of the Tithe. There is a difference between a law and a principle. While we are not under the law of the Mosaic system, we are clearly under the authority of all Biblical principles. A principle is a concept, a system of thought, a fundamental idea. The Old Testament (even apart from the law) pictures for us “principles” to learn. The Apostle Paul explained that those things which were written aforetime were written for our learning.
Kelly: So now you are going to tell us exactly what ARE and what ARE NOT Bible principles.
CWM: The primary problem with those people who argue with the tithe, do so from the standpoint of law, and legality.
Kelly: Bill Clinton said that Southern Baptists teach that oral ls sex is not really sex. The judge found him to be a liar and fined him and removed his credentials as a lawyer.
We define “tithe” from Leviticus to Matthew 23:23 the way its hearers, its recipients (Hebrews under the Law), would have defined the word. You will not accept that plain fact.
CWM: They have rightly said that there is no “legal compulsion” in scripture for the New Testament Christian to tithe. THEY ARE RIGHT! There is no legal compulsion for the New Testament Christian to be in the practice of giving 10% of his income to the Lord, through the church.
Kelly: Wow! Why are you wasting your time on this blog?
CWM: Teaching the tithe rightly understood has nothing to do with “legal complusion”, but legal compulsions are not the only “compulsions” in the Bible. We are compelled by examples. We are compelled by patterns, We are compelled by Principles. Because there is no legal compulsion does not mean that there is no compulsions at all! Because there is not a legal compulsion to tithe, does not mean that there are not other compulsions within the text that lead us and direct us to do so.
Kelly: Why don’t you repeat the same line six different ways?
CWM: The example of Baptism carries with it all of the authority needed to practice immersion as the only Biblical method to accept!
Kelly: Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists might disagree with you. Does that mean your example could be wrong about tithing also?
CWM: The example of the disciples meeting on the first day of the week is enough authority all by itself to compel us to meet on Sundays.
Kelly: Wrong again. Sunday does not replace the OT Sabbath and does not carry any compulsion with it. It is a freewill choice.
CWM: The principles of praying, praising and preaching, are all throughout the Bible, and are authoritative principles that formulate the structure, and substance of each, yet there are no spelled out laws.
Kelly: Moral principles are found within the heart of un-reprobate man. Giving is a principle; giving ten per cent is not. Worshipping is a principle; worship on a particular day of the week is not.
CWM: Christians have the example and lesson of the Friend of God tithing to the High Priest of God, before and after the law.
Kelly: Who are you to filter out what Abram did by faith and what he did by compulsion? Are we to copy Abram and go to Egypt during a famine? Are we to copy Abram and lie about our wife being our sister? Are we to copy Abram and tell God to let his blessing come throgh a concubine’s son? If you are giving permission to tithe pagan spoils of war because Abram learned that in Babylon, then go right ahead.
CWM: Christians have the principle of 10 percent, being expressed as the hearts desire of God throughout the scriptures.
Kelly: Where “throughout the Scriptures”? These are the same Scriptures which defien the CONTENT of the tithe as only FOOD from God’s HOLY land and nowhere else!
CWM: Christians have the simple definition of the word and concept. Now all of that being said, “to knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
Kelly: You have proven nothing about the tithe being an eternal moral principle.
CWM: 4.) The Disagreement with the Tithe. I do not want to impune the motives of every person on planet earth that genuinely disagrees with me. Some just do not see what I am saying, and as Paul said, “let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” That’s just fine. If I can talk you into it, someone else can talk you out of it. When the Lord talks you into it, you’re there!
Kelly: So now you begin to “impune motives.”
CWM: Some however, just simply do not want to tithe. It’s too much. They don’t like giving that much money “to the church.”
Kelly: Some have pressing medical needs, children to feed, utility bills to pay, etc. And I am talking about a lot of very poor who have been “tithing” for denerations and have not been blessed. You would rather they ignore 1st Timothy 5:8 and do without essentials so the church can have its share first.
CWM: They have a lifestyle that would have to be downsized in order for them to practice tithing. They are accustomed to a certain level of living and tithing infringes upon that. Their problems are not textual, their problems are deeper than that.
Kelly: Hmmmm. Sounds like a lot of rich preachers fit this description while many of those they suck the blood out of do without. Ever heard of generous sacrificial giving motivated by the love of God and the desire to see souls saved for God’s kingdom?
CWM: Some assert that the tithe is an “undue burden.” They will always, and I mean always attempt to use a “health issue” or “medicine need” or “food need” as the primary target against those who teach the tithe, with accusations of heartlessness, or spiritual brutality, or carelessness or whatever they want to say.
Kelly: If you equate the tithe with the “firstfruits” then you are guilty, guilty, guilty. Shame on you. Biblical tithes were never the same as “firstfruits.” Deu 26:1-4; Neh 10:35-38.
CWM: Of course they do so not understanding the spiritual purpose of the tithe, which I haven’t even gotten in to yet, and won’t here for time and space.
Kelly: The purpose fo the frist Levitical tithe was to support the Levites and priests. It was cold, hard LAW. The second festival tithe had a spiritual aspect but it reminds us that the Levites were to remain part of the poor of the land.
CWM: But I will say this. Ten percent is not the “live or die” question that most of these men want to make it. I have learned first hand, that I cannot afford, NOT to tithe. The Lord makes my 80+% (after tithe and offering) go farther for my family of 6, than 94-95% seems to. The “live or die” argument is the last line of defense for those who do not like the tithe. More often than not, that argument is intended to impune the teacher, rather than disagree with the tithe.
Kelly: Now you are making things up so you can sound intelligent with your reply. Sounds very legalistic to me. Why not just follow the “equality” principle of 2nd Cor 8:12-15?
CWM: While I have not exhausted my full defense of the principle, I have exhausted my time allotted for posting this article. Gone over it actually. Lord willing, I am done with this subject. If I had my druthers, I’d much rather see people give their hearts to Jesus, than worry about how much money people are giving to the Lord through the church. I’ve never worried about it before, so I don’t plan on starting now. I will however continue to teach this principle to new and growing believers as the Lord gives me opportunity. When I realized the difference that it made in my life it was a wonderful change worth making.
Kelly:
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
CWM: It is incumbent upon any man asserting any truth to be able to biblically defend that truth, and do so in a manner that is not unbecoming of the honest student of God’s Word.
Kelly: Amen, amen, amen.
CWM: While I have rarely preached on the subject over the last few years, I have at this place sought to stand up for this principle.
Kelly: This is a half truth and still a total lie. Your last statement says that you teach tithing to all new members!
CWM: Primarily because I have a personal resentment toward any insinuation that preachers who teach the tithe are less than honest in their ministry, or are disingenuous, or should be labeled as a false teacher.
Kelly: Most are “less than honest because they will not seriously study the subject and diaalog with us about it.” You are dishonest by deleting my posts.
CWM: While some may disagree with our conclusions about the teachings of the text, it is irresponsible to imply that all preachers who teach the tithe to their people are dishonest with their motives, ignorant about the scriptures or are somehow not on the up and up.
Kelly: “Somehow not on the up and up is my conclusion” – including and especially YOU.
CWM: Now that being said, I once again, and probably for the last time (Lord willing), want to explain the principle of the tithe rightly divided and clearly proclaimed.
Kelly: Good riddance. You have not made any sense up to now.
CWM: 1.) The Definition of the Tithe. First of all, when we are dealing with the Biblical text of the “tithe” we must not fall for the bait and switch. We must see it’s plain simple definition. The Biblical word, “tithe”, in Hebrew, Greek, English, Latin, and Piglatin speaks expressly of one-tenth, or 10%.
Kelly: YOU are the one who has made the “bait and switch.” You have changed the Bibilical CONTEXT of the tithe for a non-biblical context. What are your motives? Why have you attempted to change the obvious biblical usage of the word “tithe”?
CWM: Ten percent of mashed potatoes is a “tithe” of mashed potatoes. Ten percent of all of the left handed footballs in the world, is a “tithe” of all the left handed footballs in the world. Ten percent of all the dill pickles in the United States is a “tithe” of all the dill pickles in the United States. I think you get the point. In order to rightly understand the concept, you must stick with the clear meaning of the word.
Kelly: You have just DISPROVEN your own point! The Bible does not speak of “mashed potatoes,” “left handed footballs” or “dill pickles.” God’s Word always speaks of FOOD which has only been increaded within His own HOLY land of Israel.
CWM: The problem is that the opponents of the tithe principle do not do that. They attempt to use God’s word and their own dictionary.
Kelly: Our own “dictionary” consists of 16 texts from God’s Word which describe the CONTENTS of the tithe as ONLY FOOD which God has miraculously increased from inside Holy Israel. Biblical tithes could not come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside Israel. Why do you not try to refute that?
CWM: While the word for “tithe” speaks of an amount, they continually want to tie to a “medium”. They demand that the tithe is always tied to “flocks, fruits, herds, produce, grain, etc.” While the word deals with a percentage, they want it to deal with produce. Whatever the motive, they seem to very legalistically see the tithe concept tied expressly to a medium when that is simply not the case.
Kelly: We do not “demand” our defihition. God’s Word LIMITS it to what we see from studying His Word. You would place blinders on parishones and tell them to listen to you instead of the Word.
CWM: This is another example of what I mean when I say, we do not use the law to teach the tithe, it is they who use the law to avoid it.
Kelly: Excuse me, but the definition of the word “tithe” from Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Malachi and Matthew MUST be the definition of the Law since those passages are all under the Law. You would never win this kind of argument in an honest uncensored debate.
CWM: The fact is that the word is speaking of the “amount of a medium“, not the “amount AND medium.” It is the legalistic approach that demands that the definition of the word include the medium of whatever context it is nestled in.
Kelly: It is the legal definition given to the word “tithe” by the Law of which it is commanded and enforced. Go into a grocery store and ask for a “tenth.” The clerk will then ask you “A tenth of what.” When God’s OT workforce, the Levites, asked for a “tenth,” the people knew that it was a “tenth of food” from God’s HOLY land as the Law defined. They did not bring money or food from Gentile lands.
CWM: For example, their favorite passage of scripture to tear apart; Malachi 3:8 “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. “ Note what the scripture does not say. The scripture does not say that they were giving “nothing”. The rebuke of Israel was not that they weren’t giving something, the rebuke was that they weren’t giving the right “percentage.” I find it strange that were the tithe tied to the medium, the Lord did not specify which medium it was that they were holding back.
Kelly: This is plain stupid! The text you stopped in front of says “… that there may be FOOD in my house” and the following texts refer to “grasshoppers” and fields of FOOD. Clearly the tithe was always only FOOD.
CWM: The fact is that His rebuke was a rebuke of the amount of their giving not the medium of their giving.
Kelly: Nonsense. Read the texts and let them tell you what they are talking about: Mal 3:10-12.
CWM: Furthermore, 10 percent is 10 percent, before the law, during the law, and after the law. Whatever else may be said, 10 per cent has not changed mathematically.
Kelly: “Travel” means the same whether it is travel by foot, horse, train or airplane. The word itself does not explain what kind of travel. Tithe before the Law was a pagan spoils of war tithe in obedience to the law of the land. Tithe during the law was defined by the law as a holy tithe from a holy land. There is no tithing after the law because both the Temple and priesthood are now within the believer. Even Jews today do not tithe because there is no Temple or priesthood.
CWM: Now I have not addressed the “compulsion” to tithe yet, merely that the word tithe means 10 percent, and ten percent alone, regardless of medium, and regardless of dispensation.
Kelly: Do you honestly see no difference between spoils of war and food from God’s HOLY land?
CWM: 2.) The Dispensation of the Tithe. The next question that we must deal with is the “when” of the tithe. For the sake of clarity I am going to leave the Mosaic Law out of this.
Kelly: Yes, of course. Leave out the 16 texts which describe the CONTENTS of the HOLY tithe from Leviticus to Luke. That is dishonest.
CWM: Of course we are given the example of Abraham giving 10 percent of the spoils of war to Melchizedek long before the Mosaic law was ever given.
Kelly: It was actually a pre-circumcized Abram who had learned tithing while in Babylon as part of pagan worship.
CWM: Now those who reject this as any form of compulsion quickly point to the medium of the tithe to say it has nothing to do with us. Once again, that’s a bait and switch discussion.
Kelly: It was a form of compulsion – pagan law of the land which required tithes of spoils of war to one’s local king-priest. You are the one ignoring the facts. What do you think was happening in Gen 14:21? The law of the land was involved in the conversation. If the 90% was controlled by pagan tradition, so was the 10%.
CWM: While we want to talk about the “tithe” of the treasure, they want to talk about the “kind of the treasure, or the source of the treasure.”
Kelly: The first rule of hermeneutics is context.
CWM: Now whatever else may be said, had Abraham had ten thousand bucket fulls of chicken, he would have given Melchizedek 10 percent. Had Abraham had 4o million U.S. dollars, He would have given Melchizedek a tithe of that too. The Bible says very plainly that Abram “gave him tithes of all.” (uh – hmm – amount, not medium)
Kelly: No, read your Bible. It says that Abram “gave the tenth of the spoils” in Hebrews 7:4. (uh-hmmm – amount of the medium)
CWM: Let’s not miss the example given. We have the High Priest of God receiving a “tenth” of the increase of Abraham, the “Friend of God” Prior to the law, and not under any legal compulsion. Freely given without hesitation.
Kelly: The Bible does not say that Abram “freely gave” anything. You have changed God’s Word. Why didn’t Abram give a tithe of what he received from Pharoah in Genesis 12?
CWM: What then does that have to do with now? Hebrews 7:8 – “And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.” Hebrews 7:8 is post law, and under grace.
Kelly: Hebrews 7:8 As far as the Jewish Christians in Judea were concerned around AD65, they were still tithing to the Temple system per Acts 21:20-21 because they were all “zealous of the law.” The Episele to the Hebrews was written to wean them from the Law. Any OT tithe or offering was considered a gift to God (Christ).
You keep ignoring the very palin teaching of Hebrews 7:12-18. The law of tithing (from 7:5) “muct be changed” (7:12) and that “change” was the “annulment of the commandment going before” (of tithing from 7:5) per 7:18. Why do you tithe teachers never attempt to explain 7:10-18? Sounds dishonest to me.
CWM: …Yet here in Hebrews 7:8, the writer, (Luke in my opinion) explains the difference between the earthly priests and our Great High Priest. In his discourse concerning Christ being our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, and not after the order of the Levites, expresses the fact that “here, men that die receive tithes” referencing the law, and the Old Covenant. “but there he receiveth them of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.” “There” being reference to priestly order of Melchizedek which comes to our Great High priest Jesus Christ, of which it is clearly taught that He that is living is still receiving “tithes”. (amounts, not mediums)
Our Great High Priest, “post law,” separate from the Levitical compulsion is pictured for us as being receptive to the “tithes” of increases.
Kelly: You would make a great Ebionite. The Jewish Christians of Jerusalem, Acts 15 and Acts 21 evntually rejected Paul completely and set up their own narrow-minded legalistic church which survived for several centuries. They would have certaily rejected a Gentile such as Luke. Again you ignore the logic of 7:12-18.
CWM: 3.) The Dedication of the Tithe. There is a difference between a law and a principle. While we are not under the law of the Mosaic system, we are clearly under the authority of all Biblical principles. A principle is a concept, a system of thought, a fundamental idea. The Old Testament (even apart from the law) pictures for us “principles” to learn. The Apostle Paul explained that those things which were written aforetime were written for our learning.
Kelly: So now you are going to tell us exactly what ARE and what ARE NOT Bible principles.
CWM: The primary problem with those people who argue with the tithe, do so from the standpoint of law, and legality.
Kelly: Bill Clinton said that Southern Baptists teach that oral ls sex is not really sex. The judge found him to be a liar and fined him and removed his credentials as a lawyer.
We define “tithe” from Leviticus to Matthew 23:23 the way its hearers, its recipients (Hebrews under the Law), would have defined the word. You will not accept that plain fact.
CWM: They have rightly said that there is no “legal compulsion” in scripture for the New Testament Christian to tithe. THEY ARE RIGHT! There is no legal compulsion for the New Testament Christian to be in the practice of giving 10% of his income to the Lord, through the church.
Kelly: Wow! Why are you wasting your time on this blog?
CWM: Teaching the tithe rightly understood has nothing to do with “legal complusion”, but legal compulsions are not the only “compulsions” in the Bible. We are compelled by examples. We are compelled by patterns, We are compelled by Principles. Because there is no legal compulsion does not mean that there is no compulsions at all! Because there is not a legal compulsion to tithe, does not mean that there are not other compulsions within the text that lead us and direct us to do so.
Kelly: Why don’t you repeat the same line six different ways?
CWM: The example of Baptism carries with it all of the authority needed to practice immersion as the only Biblical method to accept!
Kelly: Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists might disagree with you. Does that mean your example could be wrong about tithing also?
CWM: The example of the disciples meeting on the first day of the week is enough authority all by itself to compel us to meet on Sundays.
Kelly: Wrong again. Sunday does not replace the OT Sabbath and does not carry any compulsion with it. It is a freewill choice.
CWM: The principles of praying, praising and preaching, are all throughout the Bible, and are authoritative principles that formulate the structure, and substance of each, yet there are no spelled out laws.
Kelly: Moral principles are found within the heart of un-reprobate man. Giving is a principle; giving ten per cent is not. Worshipping is a principle; worship on a particular day of the week is not.
CWM: Christians have the example and lesson of the Friend of God tithing to the High Priest of God, before and after the law.
Kelly: Who are you to filter out what Abram did by faith and what he did by compulsion? Are we to copy Abram and go to Egypt during a famine? Are we to copy Abram and lie about our wife being our sister? Are we to copy Abram and tell God to let his blessing come throgh a concubine’s son? If you are giving permission to tithe pagan spoils of war because Abram learned that in Babylon, then go right ahead.
CWM: Christians have the principle of 10 percent, being expressed as the hearts desire of God throughout the scriptures.
Kelly: Where “throughout the Scriptures”? These are the same Scriptures which defien the CONTENT of the tithe as only FOOD from God’s HOLY land and nowhere else!
CWM: Christians have the simple definition of the word and concept. Now all of that being said, “to knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
Kelly: You have proven nothing about the tithe being an eternal moral principle.
CWM: 4.) The Disagreement with the Tithe. I do not want to impune the motives of every person on planet earth that genuinely disagrees with me. Some just do not see what I am saying, and as Paul said, “let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” That’s just fine. If I can talk you into it, someone else can talk you out of it. When the Lord talks you into it, you’re there!
Kelly: So now you begin to “impune motives.”
CWM: Some however, just simply do not want to tithe. It’s too much. They don’t like giving that much money “to the church.”
Kelly: Some have pressing medical needs, children to feed, utility bills to pay, etc. And I am talking about a lot of very poor who have been “tithing” for denerations and have not been blessed. You would rather they ignore 1st Timothy 5:8 and do without essentials so the church can have its share first.
CWM: They have a lifestyle that would have to be downsized in order for them to practice tithing. They are accustomed to a certain level of living and tithing infringes upon that. Their problems are not textual, their problems are deeper than that.
Kelly: Hmmmm. Sounds like a lot of rich preachers fit this description while many of those they suck the blood out of do without. Ever heard of generous sacrificial giving motivated by the love of God and the desire to see souls saved for God’s kingdom?
CWM: Some assert that the tithe is an “undue burden.” They will always, and I mean always attempt to use a “health issue” or “medicine need” or “food need” as the primary target against those who teach the tithe, with accusations of heartlessness, or spiritual brutality, or carelessness or whatever they want to say.
Kelly: If you equate the tithe with the “firstfruits” then you are guilty, guilty, guilty. Shame on you. Biblical tithes were never the same as “firstfruits.” Deu 26:1-4; Neh 10:35-38.
CWM: Of course they do so not understanding the spiritual purpose of the tithe, which I haven’t even gotten in to yet, and won’t here for time and space.
Kelly: The purpose fo the frist Levitical tithe was to support the Levites and priests. It was cold, hard LAW. The second festival tithe had a spiritual aspect but it reminds us that the Levites were to remain part of the poor of the land.
CWM: But I will say this. Ten percent is not the “live or die” question that most of these men want to make it. I have learned first hand, that I cannot afford, NOT to tithe. The Lord makes my 80+% (after tithe and offering) go farther for my family of 6, than 94-95% seems to. The “live or die” argument is the last line of defense for those who do not like the tithe. More often than not, that argument is intended to impune the teacher, rather than disagree with the tithe.
Kelly: Now you are making things up so you can sound intelligent with your reply. Sounds very legalistic to me. Why not just follow the “equality” principle of 2nd Cor 8:12-15?
CWM: While I have not exhausted my full defense of the principle, I have exhausted my time allotted for posting this article. Gone over it actually. Lord willing, I am done with this subject. If I had my druthers, I’d much rather see people give their hearts to Jesus, than worry about how much money people are giving to the Lord through the church. I’ve never worried about it before, so I don’t plan on starting now. I will however continue to teach this principle to new and growing believers as the Lord gives me opportunity. When I realized the difference that it made in my life it was a wonderful change worth making.
Kelly:
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Monday, November 22, 2010
Baptist Theologian Thomas Schreiner Disagrees with Tithing
Thomas R. Schreiner, PHD, a theologian at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky since 1997, is on record opposing tithing as a New Covenant doctrine.
Dr. Schreiner earned his M. Div. and Th. M. at Western Conservative Baptist Seminary and his PHD at Fuller Theological Seminary (Baptist). He taught 11 years at Bethel Theological Seminary. He is a Pauline specialist and the author of 11 books and scores of articles.
His recent book, 40 Questions about Christians and Biblical Law, contains the follows excerpts from pages 219-220.
Page 220: "The tithe is irretrievably tied to the old covenant, which is no longer in force."
Page 220: "If tithing were normative today, it is difficult to know what God would require. I have noted above that the amount was not ten percent. ... Most of those who support tithing assume that the amount was ten percent, but Israel clearly paid more than this."
Page 220 regarding Matthew 23:23: "But we can no more take his words as a commendation for tithing today than we can his words about offering sacrifices."
Page 221: "Some of the principles with reference to tithing may apply to believers, but the practice itself is not required."
Page 221: "Even though tithing is not mandated, there is no call in the New Testament to hoard one's possessions or to live selfishly."
Page 221: "Still, the tithe itself is not mandated by Scripture, and Scripture is our rule and authority rather than a tradition that requires believers to tithe."
Dr. Schreiner earned his M. Div. and Th. M. at Western Conservative Baptist Seminary and his PHD at Fuller Theological Seminary (Baptist). He taught 11 years at Bethel Theological Seminary. He is a Pauline specialist and the author of 11 books and scores of articles.
His recent book, 40 Questions about Christians and Biblical Law, contains the follows excerpts from pages 219-220.
Page 220: "The tithe is irretrievably tied to the old covenant, which is no longer in force."
Page 220: "If tithing were normative today, it is difficult to know what God would require. I have noted above that the amount was not ten percent. ... Most of those who support tithing assume that the amount was ten percent, but Israel clearly paid more than this."
Page 220 regarding Matthew 23:23: "But we can no more take his words as a commendation for tithing today than we can his words about offering sacrifices."
Page 221: "Some of the principles with reference to tithing may apply to believers, but the practice itself is not required."
Page 221: "Even though tithing is not mandated, there is no call in the New Testament to hoard one's possessions or to live selfishly."
Page 221: "Still, the tithe itself is not mandated by Scripture, and Scripture is our rule and authority rather than a tradition that requires believers to tithe."
Thursday, November 18, 2010
Reply to Change Worth Making, 11-18-10
Tithing will not cease from our agenda until this false vestige of the Old Covenant law has been purged from our churches. It keeps the New Covenant church in legalism and draws the anathema of Paul in Galatians 1:7-9; 3:1.
Why should we want Ed Young. He is yours. All yours. He merely extends your false tithing theology to its ultimate conclusion. If it is such an important principle for the church, then admit it and join Ed Young. Otherwise admit error and drop it.
Concernng Kenneth Copeland, T.D. Jakes, Paula White, and all of the other prosperity preachers – isn’t it amazing that ALL of these theach tithing” That is where they STARTED going wrong. And do not forget Benny Hinn and John Hagee. Tithing is the leaven of the prosperity gospel and tithing leads to the other false doctrine.
Most preachers who preach 10% are willingly ignorant and do not want to discuss the matter because they would LOSE the argument every time with a knowledgeable Bible scholar.
………………………….
“This preacher could say that those who use, the “farmers, herdsman, cattle, sheep, produce, Israel, only arguments” as reasons not to tithe are being legalistic.”
………………………….
Incredibly opposite logic! While Genesis alone (before the Law) contains the word “money” 22 times, money is NEVER inclluded in any of the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
While YOU may not use the Law to teach tithing, but almost everybody else does. Take a look at the Baptist Faith and Message and look at the tithing texts used under Stewardship!
………………………………..
“Those who rightly teach the tithe do not use the law to explain it. It is from those who don’t want to tithe that use the Law to avoid it.”
………………………………..
Nobody can “rightly teach the tithe.” Abram’s tithe was only from pagan spoils of war in obedience to the law of the land. And Jacob’s tithe was an example of him telling God what to do. You have no valid pre-law or post-law principle for tithing which applies to Christians today. Give it up.
……………………………..
“For someone to say that since the tithe was only for farmers, and herdsman, Christians have no responsibility to it; is like saying, since everyone in the Bible that gave were wearing tunics, and that’s not us, we shouldn’t be asked to give.”
………………………………..
Tunics? What are you talking aaout? Farmers and herdsmen did not wear tunics! As a tentmaker working and living in pagan lands, Paul could not and did not teach tithing. You spiritualize the literal Word of God by redefining the tithe. We do not oppose giving. That is your paper tiger. We support generous sacrificial giving which often means MORE than 10%.
……………………………..
“Too often they cannot discern the difference between a principle and a command.”
……………………………..
Never can you defend your statement that tithing was/is a universal moral law. You would have the very poorest in society tithe first and do without essential medicine, food and shelter. Shame on you. Scratch 1 Timothy 5:8 out of your Bible.
……………………………..
“When I preach that God gets the best and we live off the rest, and someone takes issue with that, why is it that no one examines their motives?”
……………………………..
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad….
………………………………….
“Why doesn’t someone want to give God the best and live off the rest?”
…………………………………….
Do you ever read the Bible?
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad…
1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
…………………………………….
“That being said, the entire circus of accusation, and distortion, is a detriment to the Christian ministry.”
……………………………………….
The entire pro-tithing circus of fals doctrine and distortion is a detriment to the Christian ministry. It does not harm those in John MacArthur’s ministry.
…………………………………
“I’ve preached one series of messages on tithing and stewardship in the last five years. I have no idea who in this church practices tithing. I am not worried about it. We always have enough to do what the Lord leads us to do. I firmly believe that the Lord pays for what He orders.”
………………………………
In other words, YOU do not need to preach and teach tithing. What are you harping about then?
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
SBC Yesterday Blogspot
Why should we want Ed Young. He is yours. All yours. He merely extends your false tithing theology to its ultimate conclusion. If it is such an important principle for the church, then admit it and join Ed Young. Otherwise admit error and drop it.
Concernng Kenneth Copeland, T.D. Jakes, Paula White, and all of the other prosperity preachers – isn’t it amazing that ALL of these theach tithing” That is where they STARTED going wrong. And do not forget Benny Hinn and John Hagee. Tithing is the leaven of the prosperity gospel and tithing leads to the other false doctrine.
Most preachers who preach 10% are willingly ignorant and do not want to discuss the matter because they would LOSE the argument every time with a knowledgeable Bible scholar.
………………………….
“This preacher could say that those who use, the “farmers, herdsman, cattle, sheep, produce, Israel, only arguments” as reasons not to tithe are being legalistic.”
………………………….
Incredibly opposite logic! While Genesis alone (before the Law) contains the word “money” 22 times, money is NEVER inclluded in any of the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
While YOU may not use the Law to teach tithing, but almost everybody else does. Take a look at the Baptist Faith and Message and look at the tithing texts used under Stewardship!
………………………………..
“Those who rightly teach the tithe do not use the law to explain it. It is from those who don’t want to tithe that use the Law to avoid it.”
………………………………..
Nobody can “rightly teach the tithe.” Abram’s tithe was only from pagan spoils of war in obedience to the law of the land. And Jacob’s tithe was an example of him telling God what to do. You have no valid pre-law or post-law principle for tithing which applies to Christians today. Give it up.
……………………………..
“For someone to say that since the tithe was only for farmers, and herdsman, Christians have no responsibility to it; is like saying, since everyone in the Bible that gave were wearing tunics, and that’s not us, we shouldn’t be asked to give.”
………………………………..
Tunics? What are you talking aaout? Farmers and herdsmen did not wear tunics! As a tentmaker working and living in pagan lands, Paul could not and did not teach tithing. You spiritualize the literal Word of God by redefining the tithe. We do not oppose giving. That is your paper tiger. We support generous sacrificial giving which often means MORE than 10%.
……………………………..
“Too often they cannot discern the difference between a principle and a command.”
……………………………..
Never can you defend your statement that tithing was/is a universal moral law. You would have the very poorest in society tithe first and do without essential medicine, food and shelter. Shame on you. Scratch 1 Timothy 5:8 out of your Bible.
……………………………..
“When I preach that God gets the best and we live off the rest, and someone takes issue with that, why is it that no one examines their motives?”
……………………………..
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad….
………………………………….
“Why doesn’t someone want to give God the best and live off the rest?”
…………………………………….
Do you ever read the Bible?
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad…
1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
…………………………………….
“That being said, the entire circus of accusation, and distortion, is a detriment to the Christian ministry.”
……………………………………….
The entire pro-tithing circus of fals doctrine and distortion is a detriment to the Christian ministry. It does not harm those in John MacArthur’s ministry.
…………………………………
“I’ve preached one series of messages on tithing and stewardship in the last five years. I have no idea who in this church practices tithing. I am not worried about it. We always have enough to do what the Lord leads us to do. I firmly believe that the Lord pays for what He orders.”
………………………………
In other words, YOU do not need to preach and teach tithing. What are you harping about then?
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
SBC Yesterday Blogspot
Thursday, November 11, 2010
Southern Baptists Help Promote Anti-Tithing Theology
Finally, finally, finally, there will soon be a book in bookstores everywhere presenting our viewpont about tithign. Seehttp://www.amazon.com/Perspectives-Tithing-Views-David-Croteau/dp/0805449779/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1289482778&sr=8-1
Our good friend, David Croteau, is both editor and contributor. He evaluates all four views plus his own extensively. I suggest all of you buy this book and spread the word. For me it is a great breakthrogh.
This book is both publilshed and circulated by the Southern Baptist Convention's own press.
And it is very affordable.
Our good friend, David Croteau, is both editor and contributor. He evaluates all four views plus his own extensively. I suggest all of you buy this book and spread the word. For me it is a great breakthrogh.
This book is both publilshed and circulated by the Southern Baptist Convention's own press.
And it is very affordable.
Wednesday, November 3, 2010
GIVE YOUR CHURCH YOUR BANK ROUNTING NUMBER ADN ACCOUNT NUMBER FOR TITHE WITHDRAWAL
GIVE US YOUR BANK ROUTING NUMBER AND ACCOUNT NUMBER
Ed Young, Jr. Fellowship Church, Dallas, TX (Southern Baptist).
Watch the video for yourself.
Will the Southern Baptist Convention please stop this nonsencse? It gives Christianity a bad name and chases seekers out of your churches.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
(Summary) “Pay your tithe with automatic withdrawal from your bank account. Give me (this church) your bank routing number and account number. See it on the screen.”
http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2010/11/02/texas-mega-church-minister-asks-members-for-bank-account-routing-numbers/
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/11/ed-youngs-tithing-sermon-show-me-money.html
http://www.jesusneedsnewpr.net/would-you-give-pastor-edyoung-your-banking-information/
Ed Young, Jr. Fellowship Church, Dallas, TX (Southern Baptist).
Watch the video for yourself.
Will the Southern Baptist Convention please stop this nonsencse? It gives Christianity a bad name and chases seekers out of your churches.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
(Summary) “Pay your tithe with automatic withdrawal from your bank account. Give me (this church) your bank routing number and account number. See it on the screen.”
http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2010/11/02/texas-mega-church-minister-asks-members-for-bank-account-routing-numbers/
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/11/ed-youngs-tithing-sermon-show-me-money.html
http://www.jesusneedsnewpr.net/would-you-give-pastor-edyoung-your-banking-information/
Wednesday, June 23, 2010
Reply to Jeff D on Tithing
Jeff D: The issue of tithing was not instituted under the Law …
Russ Kelly: If you spend time in a local public library you will discover that tithing occurred in almost all pagan societies long before Abram’s time. The definition of pagan spoils of war tithe and the HOLY Old Covenant tithe of the Law are very different.
Jeff: The King of Sodom is earthly and desires to honor Abram by giving him all the goods that Abram brought back with him (Genesis 14:21).
Russ: No. As a victor in battle, Abram was due ALL the spoils other than that which was required by the law of the land to the local king-priest. The King of Sodom had no authority in the matter but was hoping for grace from Abram.
Jeff: Abram refuses to take anything for himself and gives the King of Salem a tenth (tithe) of all he recovered (Genesis 14:20).
Russ: Abram was obeying well-known Arab tradition; he had no choice in the matter. The law of the land required him to tithe spoils of war.
Jeff: Tithing is a principle given before the Law and then brought into the Law just like murder.
Russ: In order for somebody to biblically give holy tithes today:
1. They must be a Hebrew living under the Old Covenant (Ex 19:5-6).
2. They must be a Hebrew living inside a holy land of Israel (Lev 27:30-33).
3. They must be a Hebrew and only tithe food miraculously increased inside a holy Israel (Lev 27:30-33).
4. They must give Levitical tithes of food to a holy Levitical servant-hood (Num 18:21-24; Neh 10:37b) who tithes to a holy Aaronic priesthood (Num 18:25-28; Neh 10:38).
5. They must not deliberately share their Old Covenant with Gentiles (Ex 23:32; Deu 7:2).
6. They must not use tithes to support the proselytizing of Gentiles Ex 23:32; Deu 7:2).
7. They must give tithes to Levites who have forfeited their right to own property (Num 18:21-28).
Jeff: Jesus said "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished (Matthew 5:17-18).
Russ: You ignored 5:20-48 which quote all three portions of the Law. Gentiles were never under any portion of the Old Covenant Law. Hebrews are either under all of it or none of it as a covenant. For example, Ex 21:15, 17 commands you to KILL disobedient children.
Jeff: I am free from the curse of the Law
Russ: As a Gentile you never were under the curse of Israel’s Old Covenant law. Rom 2:14-16.
Jeff: The vehicle He used was Grace and along with His grace He gave us His Spirit.
Russ: His Spirit gave us the new law of love. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Jeff: (Galatians 2:20). Grace now empowers me to live the life Gods Law demands.
Russ: Instead of the Old Covenant Law being written on stones, the New Covenant Law of love is written on our hearts. We obey God as new creations in Christ.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Jeff: Sadly the very people who claim they are no longer under the Law but under grace have to a measureable extent cut themselves off from one of the very purposes the grace was given, to live a Holy life which we are commanded to do apart from the Law.
Russ: You cannot even define the way you are using the word “law.” In the OT the word “law” almost always referred to the entire set of 613 commands of commandments, statutes and judgments.
If you want to keep the Law, then keep ALL of it –all 600+ commands of it. If you want to keep tithing then keep all of the law of tithing. (1) Only tithe food from inside Israel, (2) only tithe to servants to the ministers, (3) only pay ministers one per cent, (4) tell ministers to KILL anybody else attempting to enter the sanctuary and (5) tell tithe –recipients that they cannot own property. That, my friend, is what the law of tithing teaches in God’s Word in Numbers 18.
Russ Kelly: If you spend time in a local public library you will discover that tithing occurred in almost all pagan societies long before Abram’s time. The definition of pagan spoils of war tithe and the HOLY Old Covenant tithe of the Law are very different.
Jeff: The King of Sodom is earthly and desires to honor Abram by giving him all the goods that Abram brought back with him (Genesis 14:21).
Russ: No. As a victor in battle, Abram was due ALL the spoils other than that which was required by the law of the land to the local king-priest. The King of Sodom had no authority in the matter but was hoping for grace from Abram.
Jeff: Abram refuses to take anything for himself and gives the King of Salem a tenth (tithe) of all he recovered (Genesis 14:20).
Russ: Abram was obeying well-known Arab tradition; he had no choice in the matter. The law of the land required him to tithe spoils of war.
Jeff: Tithing is a principle given before the Law and then brought into the Law just like murder.
Russ: In order for somebody to biblically give holy tithes today:
1. They must be a Hebrew living under the Old Covenant (Ex 19:5-6).
2. They must be a Hebrew living inside a holy land of Israel (Lev 27:30-33).
3. They must be a Hebrew and only tithe food miraculously increased inside a holy Israel (Lev 27:30-33).
4. They must give Levitical tithes of food to a holy Levitical servant-hood (Num 18:21-24; Neh 10:37b) who tithes to a holy Aaronic priesthood (Num 18:25-28; Neh 10:38).
5. They must not deliberately share their Old Covenant with Gentiles (Ex 23:32; Deu 7:2).
6. They must not use tithes to support the proselytizing of Gentiles Ex 23:32; Deu 7:2).
7. They must give tithes to Levites who have forfeited their right to own property (Num 18:21-28).
Jeff: Jesus said "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished (Matthew 5:17-18).
Russ: You ignored 5:20-48 which quote all three portions of the Law. Gentiles were never under any portion of the Old Covenant Law. Hebrews are either under all of it or none of it as a covenant. For example, Ex 21:15, 17 commands you to KILL disobedient children.
Jeff: I am free from the curse of the Law
Russ: As a Gentile you never were under the curse of Israel’s Old Covenant law. Rom 2:14-16.
Jeff: The vehicle He used was Grace and along with His grace He gave us His Spirit.
Russ: His Spirit gave us the new law of love. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Jeff: (Galatians 2:20). Grace now empowers me to live the life Gods Law demands.
Russ: Instead of the Old Covenant Law being written on stones, the New Covenant Law of love is written on our hearts. We obey God as new creations in Christ.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Jeff: Sadly the very people who claim they are no longer under the Law but under grace have to a measureable extent cut themselves off from one of the very purposes the grace was given, to live a Holy life which we are commanded to do apart from the Law.
Russ: You cannot even define the way you are using the word “law.” In the OT the word “law” almost always referred to the entire set of 613 commands of commandments, statutes and judgments.
If you want to keep the Law, then keep ALL of it –all 600+ commands of it. If you want to keep tithing then keep all of the law of tithing. (1) Only tithe food from inside Israel, (2) only tithe to servants to the ministers, (3) only pay ministers one per cent, (4) tell ministers to KILL anybody else attempting to enter the sanctuary and (5) tell tithe –recipients that they cannot own property. That, my friend, is what the law of tithing teaches in God’s Word in Numbers 18.
Tuesday, June 22, 2010
Nobody Biblically Tithes Today
The answer comes from the biblical definition of “tithe” as only holy food from inside God’s only Old Covenant land of Israel which God had increased. Tithes could not come from what man produced, from Gentiles or from outside of Israel. Period.
In order for somebody to biblically give holy tithes today:
1. They must be a Hebrew living under the Old Covenant (Ex 19:5-6).
2. They must be a Hebrew living inside a holy land of Israel (Lev 27:30-33).
3. They must be a Hebrew and only tithe food miraculously increased inside a holy Israel (Lev 27:30-33).
4. They must give Levitical tithes of food to a holy Levitical servant-hood (Num 18:21-24; Neh 10:37b) who tithes to a holy Aaronic priesthood (Num 18:25-28; Neh 10:38).
5. They must not deliberately share their Old Covenant with Gentiles (Ex 23:32; Deu 7:2).
6. They must not use tithes to support the proselytizing of Gentiles Ex 23:32; Deu 7:2).
7. They must give tithes to Levites who have forfeited their right to own property (Num 18:21-28).
Christians may call giving 10% of their income “tithing” but it not does not meet the biblical definition or purpose of tithing. They are merely giving freewill offerings of 10% and calling such “tithing.”
In order for somebody to biblically give holy tithes today:
1. They must be a Hebrew living under the Old Covenant (Ex 19:5-6).
2. They must be a Hebrew living inside a holy land of Israel (Lev 27:30-33).
3. They must be a Hebrew and only tithe food miraculously increased inside a holy Israel (Lev 27:30-33).
4. They must give Levitical tithes of food to a holy Levitical servant-hood (Num 18:21-24; Neh 10:37b) who tithes to a holy Aaronic priesthood (Num 18:25-28; Neh 10:38).
5. They must not deliberately share their Old Covenant with Gentiles (Ex 23:32; Deu 7:2).
6. They must not use tithes to support the proselytizing of Gentiles Ex 23:32; Deu 7:2).
7. They must give tithes to Levites who have forfeited their right to own property (Num 18:21-28).
Christians may call giving 10% of their income “tithing” but it not does not meet the biblical definition or purpose of tithing. They are merely giving freewill offerings of 10% and calling such “tithing.”
Tuesday, April 13, 2010
Comments on FLORIDA BAPTIST WITNESS Article
Comments on FLORIDA BAPTIST WITNESS Article
http://www.gofbw.com/news.asp?ID=11572
Undertaking stewardship education for the SBC
NASHVILLE (SBT)—There’s no denying that Southern Baptists individually, corporately, and as a denomination are lagging in exercising stewardship of God’s resources. While the Great Commission Resurgence Task Force recommends shifting primary responsibility for Cooperative Program promotion and stewardship education to state conventions, chairman Ronnie Floyd is counting on local pastors to teach individual Christians to honor God through tithing.
………………………………………………….
Comment: Right. The responsibility should have never been otherwise according to the nature and purpose of the SBC.
Wrong. True biblical holy tithes were always only food from inside God’s holy land of Israel which He had miraculously increased. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never a tithe-able item. Jesus did not qualify as a tithe-payer and neither did all who lived outside Israel.
…………………………………………
“Remember, the only people who ever get offended with the declaration of biblical stewardship are the ones who give little to nothing at all to your church,” Floyd stated said in the news conference that followed the release of the task force interim report Feb. 22.
………………………………………………
Comment: This is an outright lie! The early church flourished without a tithing doctrine by using freewill grace giving principles. From Martin Luther to our times there are many top theologians and Bible schools which flourish without teaching tithing.
……………………………………………
“Christians need to repent of the sin of not honoring God with at least the first -tenth of their income,” Floyd said.
……………………………………………
Comments: Floyd is guilty of twisting scripture. In God’s Word the firstfruits and tithes are never the same thing. Firstfruits were very small token offerings per Deu 26:1-4 and Neh 10:35-37. Tithes were tenth-fruits counted after the full harvest or from every 10th animal (whether good or bad) per Num 18:21-28 and Neh 10:37-38. The first income of a Christian should be used to buy essential medicine, food and shelter per First Timothy 5:8.
………………………………………………..
“Can you imagine the spiritual revival that would consume our churches if God’s people would obey God in giving? Can you imagine the opportunities of advancing the Gospel regionally, nationally, and globally if God’s people would obey God in giving?”
…………………………………………….
Comment: Can you imagine how the church would be blessed if it obeyed God’s NT post Calvary principles of giving instead of Law principles?
…………………………………………….
Seeking to discover “how Southern Baptists can work more faithfully and effectively together in serving Christ through the Great Commission,” the task force analyzed the means of funding that effort and reaffirmed the Cooperative Program as the preferred means of giving.
………………………………………………
Comment: The Great Commission brings the gospel to the Gentiles in the name of Most High God for all nations. The tithe was never used to convert OT Gentiles.
………………………………………………
…….
Floyd added … encouraged pastors and churches to be unashamed in the teaching and preaching of biblical stewardship. . “Stand on the authority of the Word of God and call the people of God back to Him through the giving of the first tenth and additional offerings to your local church.”
………………………………………………
Comment: Again, OT tithes were never used for mission work to convert Gentiles. God commanded OT Israel NOT to intermingle with the Gentiles. In other words, POST CALVARY TITHING DOES NOT STAND ON BIBLICAL AUTHORITY. Nothing, absolutely nothing about OT tithing is followed by any church today. Numbers 18:21-28 is ignored. Pastors own and inherit property and they do not KILL those attempting to enter the sanctuary and worship God directly.
…………………………………..
“From the time I did my doctoral dissertation in the area of biblical stewardship until now, I have been astounded by the selfishness of God’s people,” Floyd said, recommending that every pastor preach a series of messages on biblical stewardship annually and reaffirm such principles in small group studies.
…………………………………………….
Comment: I invite Floyd to enter into an extended in-depth dialog with me on the subject of tithing. He says he has already done the research for his doctorate.
……………………………………
http://www.gofbw.com/news.asp?ID=11572
Undertaking stewardship education for the SBC
NASHVILLE (SBT)—There’s no denying that Southern Baptists individually, corporately, and as a denomination are lagging in exercising stewardship of God’s resources. While the Great Commission Resurgence Task Force recommends shifting primary responsibility for Cooperative Program promotion and stewardship education to state conventions, chairman Ronnie Floyd is counting on local pastors to teach individual Christians to honor God through tithing.
………………………………………………….
Comment: Right. The responsibility should have never been otherwise according to the nature and purpose of the SBC.
Wrong. True biblical holy tithes were always only food from inside God’s holy land of Israel which He had miraculously increased. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never a tithe-able item. Jesus did not qualify as a tithe-payer and neither did all who lived outside Israel.
…………………………………………
“Remember, the only people who ever get offended with the declaration of biblical stewardship are the ones who give little to nothing at all to your church,” Floyd stated said in the news conference that followed the release of the task force interim report Feb. 22.
………………………………………………
Comment: This is an outright lie! The early church flourished without a tithing doctrine by using freewill grace giving principles. From Martin Luther to our times there are many top theologians and Bible schools which flourish without teaching tithing.
……………………………………………
“Christians need to repent of the sin of not honoring God with at least the first -tenth of their income,” Floyd said.
……………………………………………
Comments: Floyd is guilty of twisting scripture. In God’s Word the firstfruits and tithes are never the same thing. Firstfruits were very small token offerings per Deu 26:1-4 and Neh 10:35-37. Tithes were tenth-fruits counted after the full harvest or from every 10th animal (whether good or bad) per Num 18:21-28 and Neh 10:37-38. The first income of a Christian should be used to buy essential medicine, food and shelter per First Timothy 5:8.
………………………………………………..
“Can you imagine the spiritual revival that would consume our churches if God’s people would obey God in giving? Can you imagine the opportunities of advancing the Gospel regionally, nationally, and globally if God’s people would obey God in giving?”
…………………………………………….
Comment: Can you imagine how the church would be blessed if it obeyed God’s NT post Calvary principles of giving instead of Law principles?
…………………………………………….
Seeking to discover “how Southern Baptists can work more faithfully and effectively together in serving Christ through the Great Commission,” the task force analyzed the means of funding that effort and reaffirmed the Cooperative Program as the preferred means of giving.
………………………………………………
Comment: The Great Commission brings the gospel to the Gentiles in the name of Most High God for all nations. The tithe was never used to convert OT Gentiles.
………………………………………………
…….
Floyd added … encouraged pastors and churches to be unashamed in the teaching and preaching of biblical stewardship. . “Stand on the authority of the Word of God and call the people of God back to Him through the giving of the first tenth and additional offerings to your local church.”
………………………………………………
Comment: Again, OT tithes were never used for mission work to convert Gentiles. God commanded OT Israel NOT to intermingle with the Gentiles. In other words, POST CALVARY TITHING DOES NOT STAND ON BIBLICAL AUTHORITY. Nothing, absolutely nothing about OT tithing is followed by any church today. Numbers 18:21-28 is ignored. Pastors own and inherit property and they do not KILL those attempting to enter the sanctuary and worship God directly.
…………………………………..
“From the time I did my doctoral dissertation in the area of biblical stewardship until now, I have been astounded by the selfishness of God’s people,” Floyd said, recommending that every pastor preach a series of messages on biblical stewardship annually and reaffirm such principles in small group studies.
…………………………………………….
Comment: I invite Floyd to enter into an extended in-depth dialog with me on the subject of tithing. He says he has already done the research for his doctorate.
……………………………………
Tuesday, March 23, 2010
Reply to Change Worth Making, 3-24-10; 11AM
CWM: I will however leave you with this “cut and paste” from the minds of the leading scholars who edited and contributed to the KJV Study Bible. [Many names follow]
Russ: I will leave you with a similar list from the minds of leading scholars across the spectrum of conservative churches. In other words, a list of persons does not change the argument or God’s Word.
Craig Blomberg, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, F. F. Bruce, Lewis Sperry Chafer; James Darby, Alfred Edersheim, Walter Elwell, Everett F. Harrison, Carl F. Henry, C. H. Lenski, Zola Levitt, John MacArthur, J. Vernon McGee, Bruce Metzger, Moody Bible Institute, Mike Oppenheimer, Dwight Pentecost, Charles Ryrie, C. I. Scofield, Ray Steadman, Charles Swindoll, Merrill Unger, John Wesley, Spiros Zodhiates. Note: Dr. James Kennedy is more in agreement with our position than he is against it.
CWM: “Tithing is the practice of giving 10 percent of one’s income to the Lord. It is called “storehouse tithing” by some who require that the tithe be given the Lord through the local church.
Russ: We are more than eager to engage any of these scholars in an extended dialog. Yet they are the ones who evade open discussion. You are a wonderful exception to the rule and I highly commend you for staying with us this long. Thank you.
The definition from my book: The fourth definition of “tithe” is the precise and narrow Scriptural definition as given in the Mosaic Law in the Old Covenant. The biblical tithe was an ordinance of the Mosaic Law for the use and benefit of national Israel under the Old Covenant. The full tithe was given to the tribe of Levi, first, in exchange for his loss of land inheritance in Israel and, second, because of his servant service to his brothers in the Levitical house of Aaron who alone served as priests. A tenth of the first tithe was, in turn, given by the Levites to the priests who ministered at the altar.
The basic tithe was not to be used for building houses of worship. Since pagan dust defiled, the original tithe consisted solely of the increase of land produce from God’s sanctified land of Israel and from the increase of animals herded on the land of Israel. Although the tithe could be exchanged for its monetary value, the tithe itself never consisted of money! A second (and third) tithe was also given to provide food for festival occasions, and to provide welfare food for widows, fatherless, orphans and needy strangers in Israel.
CWM: While some Christians disagree, the principle of “God’s place” for worship is the basis for storehouse tithing (Deut. 12).
Russ: Deut 12:1 begins a discussion of “statutes and judgments” which national Israel shall obey “in the land.” They only applied to Old Covenant Israel and only inside the land. Read 12:1.
Deut 12:6-7 is a discussion of the second festival tithe which was to be eaten in the streets of Jerusalem. It was not taken to the Temple.
CWM: The temple in the Old Testament (1) was the central place characterized by God’s presence; (2) possessed the symbols of redemption; and
Russ: The “place” of Deuteronomy 12 was the “streets” of Jerusalem, not the Temple. Nehemiah 10:37b-38 is totally ignored when discussing Malachi 3:10. The two small storerooms inside the Temple could not possibly hold the tithe of the nation which was required in the Levitical cities where 98% of those who needed it for food lived.
CWM: (3) was where the man of God served.
Russ: They served in 24 courses and each course normally served one week out of 24 (twice a year). According to 1 Chronicles 23 to 26 they were not full-time temple workers; they were also political government employees working for the king. That is ignored today.
CWM: In the New Testament, these three attributes characterize the local church.
Russ: The word “church” is an assembly of believers. The church “building” did not exist for over 200 years after Calvary and was not legal for over 300 years. Comparing the OT Temple to the NT “Church” is not biblical.
CWM: Hence, the principle of storehouse tithing continues into the church age.
Russ: If that is true, then why did it take Southern Baptists over 300 years (649-1963) to even include the texts for tithing in its statement of faith? Why did the 1925 Faith and Message not include any tithing texts? Why was tithing only first presented to the Convention in 1895 (to be rejected)?
CWM: Liberty University.
Russ: The head of the Religion Dept at Liberty and other SBC theologians recently endorsed Dr. David Croteau’s book (also from Liberty) You Mean I Don’t Have to Tithe?
CWM: It is apparent that this particular group of scholars, side with the “principle” of giving 10% thru the local church. I would dare say these men are ill-motivated, or uneducated, or unable to rightly divide the truth.
Russ: And they run away from dialog. If they thought their doctrine were so strong they would eagerly defend it.
CWM: We’ll pick up this issue again, later on . . . God Bless
Russ: I certainly hope so. You can bring some friends with you also. God bless.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
Russ: I will leave you with a similar list from the minds of leading scholars across the spectrum of conservative churches. In other words, a list of persons does not change the argument or God’s Word.
Craig Blomberg, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, F. F. Bruce, Lewis Sperry Chafer; James Darby, Alfred Edersheim, Walter Elwell, Everett F. Harrison, Carl F. Henry, C. H. Lenski, Zola Levitt, John MacArthur, J. Vernon McGee, Bruce Metzger, Moody Bible Institute, Mike Oppenheimer, Dwight Pentecost, Charles Ryrie, C. I. Scofield, Ray Steadman, Charles Swindoll, Merrill Unger, John Wesley, Spiros Zodhiates. Note: Dr. James Kennedy is more in agreement with our position than he is against it.
CWM: “Tithing is the practice of giving 10 percent of one’s income to the Lord. It is called “storehouse tithing” by some who require that the tithe be given the Lord through the local church.
Russ: We are more than eager to engage any of these scholars in an extended dialog. Yet they are the ones who evade open discussion. You are a wonderful exception to the rule and I highly commend you for staying with us this long. Thank you.
The definition from my book: The fourth definition of “tithe” is the precise and narrow Scriptural definition as given in the Mosaic Law in the Old Covenant. The biblical tithe was an ordinance of the Mosaic Law for the use and benefit of national Israel under the Old Covenant. The full tithe was given to the tribe of Levi, first, in exchange for his loss of land inheritance in Israel and, second, because of his servant service to his brothers in the Levitical house of Aaron who alone served as priests. A tenth of the first tithe was, in turn, given by the Levites to the priests who ministered at the altar.
The basic tithe was not to be used for building houses of worship. Since pagan dust defiled, the original tithe consisted solely of the increase of land produce from God’s sanctified land of Israel and from the increase of animals herded on the land of Israel. Although the tithe could be exchanged for its monetary value, the tithe itself never consisted of money! A second (and third) tithe was also given to provide food for festival occasions, and to provide welfare food for widows, fatherless, orphans and needy strangers in Israel.
CWM: While some Christians disagree, the principle of “God’s place” for worship is the basis for storehouse tithing (Deut. 12).
Russ: Deut 12:1 begins a discussion of “statutes and judgments” which national Israel shall obey “in the land.” They only applied to Old Covenant Israel and only inside the land. Read 12:1.
Deut 12:6-7 is a discussion of the second festival tithe which was to be eaten in the streets of Jerusalem. It was not taken to the Temple.
CWM: The temple in the Old Testament (1) was the central place characterized by God’s presence; (2) possessed the symbols of redemption; and
Russ: The “place” of Deuteronomy 12 was the “streets” of Jerusalem, not the Temple. Nehemiah 10:37b-38 is totally ignored when discussing Malachi 3:10. The two small storerooms inside the Temple could not possibly hold the tithe of the nation which was required in the Levitical cities where 98% of those who needed it for food lived.
CWM: (3) was where the man of God served.
Russ: They served in 24 courses and each course normally served one week out of 24 (twice a year). According to 1 Chronicles 23 to 26 they were not full-time temple workers; they were also political government employees working for the king. That is ignored today.
CWM: In the New Testament, these three attributes characterize the local church.
Russ: The word “church” is an assembly of believers. The church “building” did not exist for over 200 years after Calvary and was not legal for over 300 years. Comparing the OT Temple to the NT “Church” is not biblical.
CWM: Hence, the principle of storehouse tithing continues into the church age.
Russ: If that is true, then why did it take Southern Baptists over 300 years (649-1963) to even include the texts for tithing in its statement of faith? Why did the 1925 Faith and Message not include any tithing texts? Why was tithing only first presented to the Convention in 1895 (to be rejected)?
CWM: Liberty University.
Russ: The head of the Religion Dept at Liberty and other SBC theologians recently endorsed Dr. David Croteau’s book (also from Liberty) You Mean I Don’t Have to Tithe?
CWM: It is apparent that this particular group of scholars, side with the “principle” of giving 10% thru the local church. I would dare say these men are ill-motivated, or uneducated, or unable to rightly divide the truth.
Russ: And they run away from dialog. If they thought their doctrine were so strong they would eagerly defend it.
CWM: We’ll pick up this issue again, later on . . . God Bless
Russ: I certainly hope so. You can bring some friends with you also. God bless.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
Friday, March 5, 2010
1633-1833 NO TITHING TAUGHT
"During the nearly two centuries (1633-1833) while religion was understood by early Euro-Americans as a public good deserving public support a variety of means to finance religion evolved, much as a hodgepodge of user fees, licenses and taxes is used to this day to pay for public goods. ... In the case of religion there were poll and property taxes which could be quite high. As late as 1838 Connecticut congregations were taxing their members nearly 0.26 property value each year ... Massachusetts taxed pew holders. Annual poll and head taxes were used ... Some churches used pledges." In Pursuit of the Almighty’s Dollar, James Hudnut-Beumler, 2007, Vanderbilt University, page 9.
Friday, February 26, 2010
1644 London Baptist Confession: Self-Supporting Pastors
1644 London Baptist Confession
XXXVII. That the Ministers aforesaid, lawfully called by the Church, where they are to administer, OUGHT TO CONTINUE IN THEIR CALLING, according to God's ordinance, and carefully to feed the flock of Christ committed to them, nor for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind. Heb. 5:4; Acts 4:23; 1 Tim. 4:14; John 10:3, 4; Acts 20:28; Rom. 12:7, 8; Heb. 13:7, 17
XXXVIII. That the DUE MAINTENANCE of the officers aforesaid, SHOULD BE THE FREE AND VOLUNTARY COMMUNICATION of the Church, that according to Christ's ordinance, they that preach the Gospel, should live on the Gospel and NOT by constraint to be COMPELLED FROM THE PEOPLE BY A FORCED LAW. 1Cor. 9:7,14; Gal. 6:6; 1 Thes. 5:13; 1 Tim. 5:17-18; Phil. 4:15-16
[NOTE: NO TITHING TEXTS ARE LISTED!]
XXXVII. That the Ministers aforesaid, lawfully called by the Church, where they are to administer, OUGHT TO CONTINUE IN THEIR CALLING, according to God's ordinance, and carefully to feed the flock of Christ committed to them, nor for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind. Heb. 5:4; Acts 4:23; 1 Tim. 4:14; John 10:3, 4; Acts 20:28; Rom. 12:7, 8; Heb. 13:7, 17
XXXVIII. That the DUE MAINTENANCE of the officers aforesaid, SHOULD BE THE FREE AND VOLUNTARY COMMUNICATION of the Church, that according to Christ's ordinance, they that preach the Gospel, should live on the Gospel and NOT by constraint to be COMPELLED FROM THE PEOPLE BY A FORCED LAW. 1Cor. 9:7,14; Gal. 6:6; 1 Thes. 5:13; 1 Tim. 5:17-18; Phil. 4:15-16
[NOTE: NO TITHING TEXTS ARE LISTED!]
Thursday, February 25, 2010
Doctor Johnny Hunt's Doctorate is Honorary
According to the following article on the SBC web site "Doctor" Johnny Hunt has an earned B. A. in Religion from Gardner-Webb in 1979 and an earned M. Div. from SEBTS in 1981. How did he get a M.Div in two years?
http://www.sbc.net/PresidentsPage/JohnnyHunt/bio.asp
He has HONORARY degrees from two schools like my own which are not fully accredited:
Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary of Sharpsburg, Georgia
Doctor of Sacred Laws and Letters from Covington Theological Seminary
Doctor of Divinity at Tennessee Temple University
This makes his own DOCTORAL credentials even less real than my own earned degree! Yet the SBC makes fun of Covington while allowing one of its own presidents like Hunt to call himself "DOCTOR" with only honorary degrees. What a sham!
And more, Jerry Vines, Charles Stanley, Walter MarTin and Spiros Zodhiates all got their degrees from schools which were not accredited at the time.
How does the US government accredit a religious school? Is the theology from BYU (Mormon) and Notre Dame (Catholic) correct because they are accredited schools?
http://www.sbc.net/PresidentsPage/JohnnyHunt/bio.asp
He has HONORARY degrees from two schools like my own which are not fully accredited:
Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary of Sharpsburg, Georgia
Doctor of Sacred Laws and Letters from Covington Theological Seminary
Doctor of Divinity at Tennessee Temple University
This makes his own DOCTORAL credentials even less real than my own earned degree! Yet the SBC makes fun of Covington while allowing one of its own presidents like Hunt to call himself "DOCTOR" with only honorary degrees. What a sham!
And more, Jerry Vines, Charles Stanley, Walter MarTin and Spiros Zodhiates all got their degrees from schools which were not accredited at the time.
How does the US government accredit a religious school? Is the theology from BYU (Mormon) and Notre Dame (Catholic) correct because they are accredited schools?
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