http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=34861
Greear: Over the years I have gotten (and had myself) questions about whether or not the tithe (giving the first 10 percent of our income back to God as prescribed by the law) was biblical.
Kelly: Immediately you make the greatest error of your article. True biblical holy tithes were always only FOOD from inside God’s holy land of Israel which God had miraculously increased. While money is very common in Genesis, money is never a tithe-able item. Sixteen (16) texts validate this. Tithes could not come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside Israel. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not tithe and nobody can tithe today.
Greear: Tithing is a part of the law, and Jesus has definitely fulfilled it all in our place so that we are free from its bondage.
Kelly: If you stopped here you would be fine. But you then back-pedal and contradict yourself.
Greear: However, the purposes of the law were (generally speaking) 3-fold:
-- to show us what God was like.
-- to reveal how far short we fall of God's character.
-- to show us how to thrive in the creation God has placed us in.
Kelly: This is really a deceptive answer by what you omit. The Law was given as a covenant only to Israel. It was to show Old Covenant Israel that it could not achieve righteousness by obeying God’s commands. It was an object-lesson to teach ignorant slaves about God. The Law was never commanded to “us” non-Hebrews. The Law was temporary (Gal 3:19-26).
Greear: None of those 3 purposes faded with the death of Jesus.
Kelly: As you just wrote “Jesus fulfilled it all in our place so that we are free from its bondage.” It all “faded with the death of Jesus” per Hebrews 7:18; 8:13 and Romans 3:21.
Greear: If anything, Jesus' coming intensified them.
Kelly: You have changed your focus away from God’s Law and to your invented “3 purposes.” This is sneaky. God’s Law was an indivisible whole of Ten Commandments, ceremonial statutes and civil judgments. From the texts quoted in Matthew 5:19-48 all the whole law was fulfilled at Calvary. You word-shuffle is trying to both end all of the law and keep all of the law at the same time.
Greear: We saw more of what God was like, what holiness was like, and what a man acting in perfect harmony with creation was like.
Kelly: And what do we do with the hundreds of laws which were not specifically repealed in the New Covenant after Calvary? Are our women to leave the camp one week per month? Are we to travel to Jerusalem three times a year? Are we not to harvest crops every seventh year? You are playing with words and ignoring the mountain called the law.
Greear: As it relates to the tithe, the law reveals the unchanging character of God and how He expects us to view the money HE has provided for us.
Kelly: That part of the Law which is eternal and moral is also written in our hearts by conscience and revealed in nature. It is repeated to the Church in terms of the New Covenant after Calvary. We all know to give generously and sacrificially but tithing was a special revelation given only to Israel to support its sacrificial system. And you have provided no texts whatsoever to validate your statements.
Greear: A minimum of 10 percent that He has given to us, whether we are rich or poor, is to go back into His work.
Kelly: Pardon me, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Show me from God’s Word where tithing was a “minimum” for everybody. It was only a “minimum” for Hebrew food producers who lived inside Israel. The poor who were not food-producers were never required to tithe and actually ate much of the festival tithe and all of the third-year tithe. Why don’t you provide texts?
Greear: This is how He set up the world order. This is why the "tithe" principle (the first 10 percent of income going into God's work) is taught pre-law (Abraham)
Kelly: You may follow Abram’s pre circumcision tithe all you wish: (1) only spoils of war, (2) keep nothing, (3) give the remaining 90% to the modern equivalent to the king of Sodom (a gay community leader?). Who are you kidding?
Greear: law (Moses), post-exile (Malachi)
Kelly: This tithe of the Law was clearly only food from inside Israel as 16 texts in the law describe it. Be honest.
Greear: and even affirmed under Jesus (Matthew 23:23).
Kelly: Does your Bible not say that Jesus was discussing “matters of the law”? Was not Jesus living under the jurisdiction of the law per Gal 4:4-5? It was illegal for Jesus to command anybody to tithe to himself. Where did you learn these hermeneutics?
Greear: God's purposes for creation haven't changed.
Kelly: Creation? You are playing games with God’s Word. Shame on you. God did not command all “creation” to tithe. The church is commanded to give freely, generously, sacrificially, joyfully, not by command and motivated by love for God and others. If you cannot make that work, then you need to get out of the ministry.
Greear: We are no longer under the theocratic nation state of Israel
Kelly: “We” Gentiles never were “under the law.” You need to spend 13 years like Paul did in re-learning what the law was all about.
Greear: but how God has set up His economy for His people has not changed.
Kelly: A lot of fancy words, but no texts to validate them from God’s Word. The key is “his people.” His “people” under the Old Covenant was Israel. His “people” in this dispensation is the “assembly of believers.” God does not change his character but he certainly does change from ruling Israel under the Old Covenant and ruling the Church under the New Covenant per Hebrews 7:18 and 8:13.
Greear: God doesn't lay the financial weight of the entire world on any of our shoulders, but He has given His people a plan whereby they do their part.
Kelly: News flash: the wealthy have plenty of money for yachts and booze after tithing but the poor cannot even buy essential medicine, food and shelter after tithing. You are blatantly violating Paul’s instruction in First Timothy 5:8. News flash: tithing and firstfruits were never the same thing in God’s Word per Deu 26:1-4 and Neh 10:35-38.
Greear: The law was given to help people live in the shalom of God. That's what gives the law (principles like taking a Sabbath and the tithe) an enduring effect.
Kelly: Wrong. Do you think it is moral to own slaves? The Sabbath commandment approves it. And, if you receive tithes, you must agree not to own and inherit land per Numbers 18:21-28.
Greear: Thus, the idea that 10 percent of all that God gives to you is given for you to give back to Him remains, I believe, as a good guide to our giving.
Kelly: News flash: God owned everything in the OT also but only accepted tithes from inside His holy land of Israel. You do not and cannot give a biblical tithe today.
Greear: Now, let me be clear -- Jesus left us under NO PART of the law, not the tithe or anything else.
Kelly: Your two “no law” statements at the beginning and end of this article sandwich a whole lot of junk theology in between. Shame on you. You give something away (no law) and then grab it back again.
Greear: But the law, in that it reflects God's character and His ordering of creation, is still good, and still functions as a guide to how we are to live under God in this world.
Kelly: No, the Law is not our guide. No texts validate this. Jesus is the new standard of righteousness per John 16:8-9; 2 Cor 3:10-18; Romans 3:21 and Hebrews 1:1-2. You need to go back to school.
Like a Seventh-day Adventist, you have no idea how to consistently use the word “law.” It is not the Ten Commandments. It is usually everything from Exodus 16 to Deuteronomy. Paul used it in Romans 3 to include the Psalms and Prophets. How do you use it consistently?
Greear: Men and women of God throughout the Bible, including Abraham and Jesus, seemed to recognize that. If anything, the Gospel raises the level of our response to God's laws.
Kelly: Which laws? There are over 600 commands in the law. Am I to show myself to a priest after being healed? Am I to kill my children when they strike or curse me? Tithes could not be used to send out missionaries. Am I to follow that example? Those who received Levitical tithes were to kill anybody attempting to enter the sanctuary. Do you obey that law?
Greear: True obedience, Jesus says, goes much deeper than the behavior standards the law required. For example, the law said "don't murder," yet Jesus said the Gospel demanded we love our brother always and not hate him, not even our enemies. The law said "don't commit adultery," yet Jesus said that the Gospel demanded people not even "look on another woman with lust in our heart."
Kelly: You are deliberately dishonest here because you picked out the 2 reference to the Ten Commandments in Matthew 5:20-48 and conveniently ignored the 2 references to the ceremonial statutes and the 2 references to the civil judgments. That shows you are still confused about the law.
Greear: So, if the law says "give 10 percent," what kind of generosity does the Gospel call for? Would it not be greater generosity than 10 percent, just as the other commands were also intensified in Christ?
Kelly: You are creating a lie using two false assumptions. You falsely assume that the law commanded everybody to tithe and you falsely assume that everybody began their level of giving at 10%. Shame on you.
Greear: In other words, if the people who saw God's generosity in the Exodus responded with giving 10 percent …
Kelly: The cold hard Law commanded tithes whether or not one was in agreement or joyful. Again you are arguing from your own false presupposition.
Greear: … how much more should people who have seen the cross? This is why you see the early church giving far beyond 10 percent. So overwhelmed by the generosity of Christ, they wanted to pour out their possessions for those in need (2 Corinthians 8:9).
Kelly: Now you are teaching contrary to the Southern Baptist Press you are writing in. They teach “tithes PLUS freewill offerings” and quote 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 as instruction concerning freewill offerings –not tithes. You cannot have it both ways. What you said is true but it is not true that the early church was tithing. It was giving SACRIFICIALLY.
Greear: For Gospel-touched people, tithing should never be the ceiling of their giving, but it should be the floor.
Kelly: “It should be the floor”!!! This is an outright deliberate high-handed presumptuous willful LIE without a single Bible text for validation. And it is damming the Southern Baptist Convention to teach it.
Greear: Tithing, in and of itself, is not an iron-clad rule for Christians as it was for Israelites under the law.
Kelly: Then WHY did you just tell that tremendous lie? “For Gospel-touched people, tithing should never be the ceiling of their giving, but it should be the floor. For Gospel-touched people, tithing should never be the ceiling of their giving, but it should be the floor.”
Greear: That said, "giving our firstfruits to God" most definitely is a biblical principle, true of God's people in all places and at all times.
Kelly: News flash: tithes are “tenth-fruits” and not “first-fruits.” First-fruits were extremely small token offerings. Read some good Bible dictionaries.
Greear: And 10 percent is a great place to start with that.
Kelly: This un-validated Southern Baptist lie is repeated so much that its people think it is biblical. Some people are so poor that they cannot “start with a tithe” and still buy medicine, food and essential shelter. Thank God that you are not terribly disabled and on welfare yourself; you might change you mind otherwise.
Greear: Should I give the tithe "pre-tax" or "post-tax"?
Kelly: Neither. Nobody can tithe biblically.
Greear: In the Old Testament, God called the tithe a "firstfruit" (cf. 1 Corinthians 16:2). This meant their giving to God came first before anything else. That teaches pretty clearly that our giving to God comes before Uncle Sam takes his share. God gets the firstfruits, not the second ones.
Kelly: This “firstfruit” lie has already been exposed.
Greear: When during the month should I give? The principle of "firstfruits" also shows you, in my opinion, that the tithe check should be written first, and not at the end of the month when you see how much left over you have. If you do the latter, you will inevitably never have enough to give God 10 percent.
Kelly: This is greedy selfish theology which turns God into a monster and gives the church a bad name. Again no texts.
Greear: You're giving Him your scraps. But if you do the former, you will inevitably adjust your lifestyle around what you have left.
Kelly: You can always move into a cardboard box under the expressway after tithing when your house is re-possessed.
Greear: And, God also will find a way to multiply His blessings to you. I've seen that happen in my own life multiple times. It's pretty exciting.
Kelly: Those who tithe all their lives and remain in poverty are never asked to testify.
Greear: Should we give to the church, or other things?
In the Old Testament system, the tithe went to the work of God's institution, the temple. Caring for the poor beyond what the temple did, or funding an itinerant rabbi, etc, all came out beyond the tithe.
Kelly: Yes, there were three tithes of 23%. Why don’t you teach that?
Greear: I believe the implication is that tithing should go to God's new institution, the local church.
Kelly: Again no texts. Hebrews 7:18 says that the system which supported the Aaronic priesthood (7:5) was annulled in fulfillment of 7:12. Explain that please.
Greear: Hopefully you have a church that you feel good about how they spend their money (not all on buildings, entitlement perks for members and pastors, etc.) and you see them working in the streets and unreached parts of the world.
Kelly: Sounds good but not biblical. Tithes never paid for missions in the OT. There is no precedent to follow.
Greear. I'd say if you trust your pastor, however, you honor God by giving to the institution He ordained.
Kelly: Give as the Holy Spirit instructed the Church after Calvary.
Greear: Then, give like a Gospel-touched fool beyond that to all the things God has put in your heart.
Kelly: Give sacrificially as the Spirit convicts and even beyond your ability at times. That is not tithing.
Greear: When my wife Veronica and I first got married, we had to stretch ourselves unbelievably thin to tithe. As God has increased our income over the years, we have yearly increased the percentage of what we give. We now give way above the tithe to our church, and then beyond that to ministries blessing the poor, carrying the Gospel to the world, and some to our church's expansion project.
Kelly: The point is that you are not commanded to begin at 10%. That is not a New Covenant giving principle.
Greear: It really is more blessed to give than to receive.
Kelly: That reference is from Acts 20:35 where Paul told church elders to work to help the needy in their congregations – not the other way around.
Greear: God really has multiplied what we have given to him and given it back to us "in every way" -- financially, in joy, in perspective, etc. (2 Corinthians 8-9). We love it.
Kelly: Yes, but 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 are freewill giving principles which propelled the first century church.
Greear: J.D. Greear is lead pastor at the Summit Church in Durham, N.C. This column first appeared on his blog, JDGreear.com.
Kelly: I invite you to enter an in-depth dialog with me on tithing and share the dialog with your congregation. If you are correct, I will be exposed as in error. If you are in error, you can change and teach truth.
THREE MAIN ERRORS:
Defined tithe wrong.
Defined firstfruits wrong.
Uses the word “law” inconsistently.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
Thursday, March 17, 2011
Thursday, March 10, 2011
Rebuttal of Pastor Dean Shriver
Pastor Dean Shriver, D. Min.
Can We Preach the Tithe?
Intermountain Baptist Church
March 10, 2011
http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/preaching-teaching/138394-can-we-preach-the-tithe.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily-Update
Church Leaders.com
Shriver: Tithing—I believe every Christian should do it. But can I preach that? Like you, I’m committed to preaching only what the Bible clearly teaches.
Kelly: You should stick to this approach.
Shriver: Unfortunately, I’ve always found the Bible’s teaching about a believer’s responsibility to tithe to be fuzzy around the edges. Off the top before taxes? Off the bottom after taxes? All to the church (ours in particular!)? Off of income or off of possessions? Of course the problem isn’t with Scripture. The problem is me.
Kelly: The problem is with your misunderstanding of Scripture.
Shriver: When it comes to giving, my own preferences, opinions, and training make it hard for me to approach relevant texts with a clear and teachable mind.
Kelly: And proper hermeneutics.
Shriver: On the one hand, I know that the tithe is “law” and that, in Christ, we’re no longer under the Law.
Kelly: You make the same mistake I made for decades. In fact, we Gentiles and the Church never were “under the law.” We were always excluded from the law. God commanded Old Covenant Israel NOT to share its covenant (law) with us.
Shriver: Still, it’s hard for me to fathom how anyone can honestly taste the sweetness of God’s grace only to turn around and “Scrooge” God by giving Him less than 10%.
Kelly: You are coming from a false definition of tithe and are falsely assuming that everybody in the OT was required to begin a level of giving at 10%.
Though money was common, the true holy biblical tithe of the Old Covenant Law was always only food from inside God’s holy land which He had miraculously increased. Tithes never could come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside of Israel. Not even Jesus, Peter or Paul qualified as tithe-payers. Tithing was only a minimum for food producers living inside Israel. Sixteen texts validate this biblical fact.
Shriver: The very idea makes me want to raise my voice, pound my pulpit and thump my Bible! Which is exactly why I’m not yet ready to preach that sermon on tithing. But I’m getting closer.
Kelly: Perhaps you will allow me to help you clarify the issues.
Shriver: On a recent jog, I began to think again about the issue of tithing. It occurred to me that there’s more than one way to tithe. In fact, three distinct forms of tithing are practiced in the Bible. Only one is legitimate for the believer.
Kelly: There were three distinctly different tithes for 3 different purposes for 3 different locations. See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id29.html
Shriver: The form of tithing most often addressed in Scripture is “tithing as covenant.” This practice of tithing was specific to Israel as the covenant people of God. It was part of the Mosaic Law (Leviticus 27:30-33; Numbers 18:21-32; Deuteronomy 14:22-29). Under the Covenant, God promised to materially bless Israel for obedience [to the whole law] and, conversely, to judge them (strip them of their prosperity) for disobedience [to any of the law; Gal 3:10] (Deuteronomy 28 and Malachi 3:8-12). This model for tithing has no direct relevance to us as New Testament believers.
Kelly: Very true. Tithing was to support the Levites who were only servants to the priests. And the Levites tithed a tithe (1%) to the priests who gave freewill sacrificial offerings (Mal 1:13-14). Those Levites and priests who received the first tithe were not allowed to own holy land inside Israel. This is not obeyed.
Shriver: In Christ, we live under a new covenant. Our lives are not governed by the written code but by the indwelling Holy Spirit who writes His “law” on our hearts (Galatians 5:18; Hebrews 8:7-13).
Kelly: The New Covenant replaced both the old Temple and priesthood with the priesthood of all believers. Tithes are never commanded to the Church or Gentiles after Calvary. They are replaced with freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful offerings motivated by love for God and lost souls. For many this means MORE than 10% but others are already giving sacrificially even though less than 10% per 2 Cor 8:12-14.
Shriver: The Bible also describes a second kind of tithing that is both condemnable and, I fear, far too common—“tithing as legalism.” In Jesus’ day, it was the religious leaders who practiced this perversion of Israel’s covenant tithe. Christ’s condemnation of legalistic tithing was absolute,
“Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel” (Matthew 23:23-24)!
Kelly: True. The context was “matters of the law” and was addressed to “you, scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites.”
Shriver: In His relationship with Israel, God intended the tithe to be an avenue to blessing. The religious manipulators of Jesus’ day turned the blessing into burden. Instead of expressing faithfulness to God—and oneness of heart with God for ministry and the poor—the tithe became little more than a means to satisfy “religious obligations.” Such satisfaction leads to pride (Luke 18:9-12) and, in the end, restricts giving. After all, once our “obligation” is satisfied, what more could God want? It’s no wonder Jesus so strongly denounces legalistic tithing.
Yet, how easily the sin of the Pharisees can become our sin too!
Kelly: Very good.
Shriver: Effective ministry requires money—money that comes from God’s people. Believers need to give—both for their own sake and the sake of the Kingdom. Since they need to give, we need to preach about giving. When we do, however, we must be careful not to turn blessing into burden.
Kelly: Very good.
Shriver: We must refuse to preach “tithing as legalism.” So what’s the alternative?
Kelly: The alternative is the truth as taught by the Holy Spirit to the Church after Calvary. And that does not include tithing.
Shriver: Tithing as worship!
Kelly: Text please.
Shriver: In Scripture, “tithing as worship” was practiced prior to both the establishment of “tithing as covenant” and the perversion of “tithing as legalism.” The principle of “tithing as worship” is “pre-Law.” It’s established in Genesis 14:17-24 where Abram gives a tenth of his plunder to Melchizedek, King of Salem.
Kelly: Texts please. Genesis 14:17-24 does NOT tell us that (uncircumcised) Abram tithed “as worship.” In fact it does not tell us WHY Abram tithed. Since he was born and raised in Babylon where tithing existed, it is possible that he tithed for a different reason. Many commentaries suggest that an Arab tradition or law of the land controlled the 90% of 14:21. You simply cannot add to God’s Word and conclude that Abram either gave freely or in obedience to God.
Shriver: Melchizedek, in turn, blesses Abram.
Kelly: Any king-priest of Abram’s day would have done the same thing after receiving tithes from spoils of war.
Shriver: Hebrews 7:1-10 defines the significance of these acts declaring that it is the superior who blesses the inferior and the inferior who pays tithes to the superior.
Kelly: The purpose of Hebrews is not to teach the Church to tithe. It uses tithing as a vehicle to prove that Jesus has replaced the Aaronic priesthood. The tithing “commandment in the law” from 7:5 was “of necessity changed” in 7:12 and that “change” was its “annulment of the commandment going before” in 7:18. While 7:18 refers to all statutes relating to the Aaronic priesthood, it must also include the statute of tithing found in Numbers 18.
Shriver: “Tithing as worship,” then, is first an act by which we acknowledge that God is both our superior (the Sovereign Lord) and the source of all blessing.
Kelly: You are twisting God’s Word to make it say what you want it to say. The “we” of Genesis 14 was not the church.
Shriver: But “tithing as worship” does more than acknowledge God. It expresses our personal allegiance to Him. We see this in Genesis 28:10-22. Here, God reveals himself to Jacob in a dream. In response, the patriarch vows, “the Lord shall be my God…and of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you.” For Jacob, the “tithe as worship” became a natural expression of his decision to follow the God of His Fathers.
Kelly: Shame on you. You again twist and pervert God’s Word by conveniently omitting the key “if” of verse 20. The schemer Jacob was telling God what to do! This tactic is unchristian. Far from “worship,” Jacob was black-mailing God and you are joining in his deception by twisting this Scripture!
Shriver: In the same way, the “tithe as worship” becomes an almost instinctive way for us to express our allegiance to the God of our Salvation.
Kelly: Texts please.
Shriver: A third, and critical, element of “tithing as worship” is thanksgiving. “Tithing as worship” expresses overflowing gratitude towards God.
Kelly: Texts please. The first Levitical tithe was cold hard Law and was commanded whether one was grateful or not. A second festival tithe was for rejoicing but you do you teach that tithe and you do not eat it in the streets of Jerusalem.
Shriver: It breaks free from guilt as the motivation for giving.
Kelly: Texts please.
Shriver: Its ultimate focus is the condition of one’s heart—not the percentage of one’s income.
Kelly: Texts please.
Shriver: On the topic of percentages, I find the words of John H. Walton and Andrew E. Hill to be practical. They write, “How are we to show our gratitude to God other than by giving back a portion?
Kelly: O.K. so far.
Shriver: If 10 percent was considered an acceptable portion by God as an expression of gratitude then, why should we view it any differently today?
Kelly: Texts please. The first Levitical tithe was cold hard law – not gratitude – like taxes today. The government does not care for gratitude.
Shriver: We might consider 10 percent as a benchmark just as we consider 15 percent a benchmark for tipping. The extent of the customer’s gratitude and appreciation is demonstrated in the size of the tip.
Kelly: You cannot compare a cold hard law with a freewill choice.
Shriver: It would be considered the ultimate rudeness or the consummate insult to leave no tip at all.
Kelly: The merchants and tradesmen such as carpenters, fishermen and tentmakers gave no tithe at all; they gave freewill offerings. Why not follow this example?
Shriver: So it is to God if we return no portion to him. In addition, there are occasions when the situation calls for a contribution exceeding the benchmark” (Old Testament Today; Zondervan: 2004, 270-271).
Kelly: You are mixing Law and Grace and reintroducing the thought of Malachi after rejecting it earlier.
Shriver: Again it must be said—ultimately, “tithing as worship” isn’t about percentage of income.
Kelly: It has no biblical support.
Shriver: It’s about the overflow of one’s heart. 2 Corinthians 8:5 is clear. When we first give ourselves to the Lord, any act of giving pleases him—whether above or below the “benchmark.” “For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have” (2 Corinthians 8:12).
Kelly: You are playing games with God’s Word again. Second Corinthians is NOT discussing tithing. It is discussing freewill generous sacrificial giving – the kind of giving which propelled the early church. Paul and Jewish Christians knew very well that tithes could not come from Gentiles or from pagan lands and did not teach tithing.
Shriver: How then, can we preach the tithe? First, we recognize that “tithing as covenant” has no direct relevance to New Testament believers. Second, we acknowledge that “tithing as legalism” is just plain sin—both for those who practice it and those who preach it.
Kelly: Correct. Stick to the simple truth. Merely saying “tithes PLUS offerings” reaches into the realm you just rejected.
Shriver: Only the principle of “tithing as worship” remains. That’s the tithing we can preach!
Kelly: No, it does not remain; it never existed except in the Old Covenant festival tithe which was EATEN. You have no texts to preach this.
Shriver: “Tithing as worship” is our opportunity to acknowledge that God is God. He is ruler over our lives. He is the source of every blessing we enjoy.
Kelly: You can do that without teaching error.
Shriver: More than that, “tithing as worship” expresses our allegiance to God in a very personal and concrete way. And finally, “tithing as worship” manifests a heart overflowing with thanksgiving towards God.
Kelly: Sounds good, but it is still unbiblical. The SDAs make the same kind of argument to prove Saturday Sabbath observance to worship and honor God.
Shriver: With this in mind, perhaps we should be less concerned with whether people tithe and more concerned with why they tithe.
Kelly: This totally ignores the true biblical definition and purpose of the tithe.
Shriver: Ultimately, tithing isn’t about percentage of income or money in the plate. It’s about worship!
Tithing as worship—I think that will preach!
Kelly: Preach it as your theory. Be sure to tell your congregation there are no texts to validate it. I would appreciate an extended in-depth dialog.
There are now at least 7 SBC theologians who are writing against tithing and for grace giving. In May 2011 the SBC will publish Perspectives on Tithing, Four Views. The false doctrine is being exposed.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Can We Preach the Tithe?
Intermountain Baptist Church
March 10, 2011
http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/preaching-teaching/138394-can-we-preach-the-tithe.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily-Update
Church Leaders.com
Shriver: Tithing—I believe every Christian should do it. But can I preach that? Like you, I’m committed to preaching only what the Bible clearly teaches.
Kelly: You should stick to this approach.
Shriver: Unfortunately, I’ve always found the Bible’s teaching about a believer’s responsibility to tithe to be fuzzy around the edges. Off the top before taxes? Off the bottom after taxes? All to the church (ours in particular!)? Off of income or off of possessions? Of course the problem isn’t with Scripture. The problem is me.
Kelly: The problem is with your misunderstanding of Scripture.
Shriver: When it comes to giving, my own preferences, opinions, and training make it hard for me to approach relevant texts with a clear and teachable mind.
Kelly: And proper hermeneutics.
Shriver: On the one hand, I know that the tithe is “law” and that, in Christ, we’re no longer under the Law.
Kelly: You make the same mistake I made for decades. In fact, we Gentiles and the Church never were “under the law.” We were always excluded from the law. God commanded Old Covenant Israel NOT to share its covenant (law) with us.
Shriver: Still, it’s hard for me to fathom how anyone can honestly taste the sweetness of God’s grace only to turn around and “Scrooge” God by giving Him less than 10%.
Kelly: You are coming from a false definition of tithe and are falsely assuming that everybody in the OT was required to begin a level of giving at 10%.
Though money was common, the true holy biblical tithe of the Old Covenant Law was always only food from inside God’s holy land which He had miraculously increased. Tithes never could come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside of Israel. Not even Jesus, Peter or Paul qualified as tithe-payers. Tithing was only a minimum for food producers living inside Israel. Sixteen texts validate this biblical fact.
Shriver: The very idea makes me want to raise my voice, pound my pulpit and thump my Bible! Which is exactly why I’m not yet ready to preach that sermon on tithing. But I’m getting closer.
Kelly: Perhaps you will allow me to help you clarify the issues.
Shriver: On a recent jog, I began to think again about the issue of tithing. It occurred to me that there’s more than one way to tithe. In fact, three distinct forms of tithing are practiced in the Bible. Only one is legitimate for the believer.
Kelly: There were three distinctly different tithes for 3 different purposes for 3 different locations. See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id29.html
Shriver: The form of tithing most often addressed in Scripture is “tithing as covenant.” This practice of tithing was specific to Israel as the covenant people of God. It was part of the Mosaic Law (Leviticus 27:30-33; Numbers 18:21-32; Deuteronomy 14:22-29). Under the Covenant, God promised to materially bless Israel for obedience [to the whole law] and, conversely, to judge them (strip them of their prosperity) for disobedience [to any of the law; Gal 3:10] (Deuteronomy 28 and Malachi 3:8-12). This model for tithing has no direct relevance to us as New Testament believers.
Kelly: Very true. Tithing was to support the Levites who were only servants to the priests. And the Levites tithed a tithe (1%) to the priests who gave freewill sacrificial offerings (Mal 1:13-14). Those Levites and priests who received the first tithe were not allowed to own holy land inside Israel. This is not obeyed.
Shriver: In Christ, we live under a new covenant. Our lives are not governed by the written code but by the indwelling Holy Spirit who writes His “law” on our hearts (Galatians 5:18; Hebrews 8:7-13).
Kelly: The New Covenant replaced both the old Temple and priesthood with the priesthood of all believers. Tithes are never commanded to the Church or Gentiles after Calvary. They are replaced with freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful offerings motivated by love for God and lost souls. For many this means MORE than 10% but others are already giving sacrificially even though less than 10% per 2 Cor 8:12-14.
Shriver: The Bible also describes a second kind of tithing that is both condemnable and, I fear, far too common—“tithing as legalism.” In Jesus’ day, it was the religious leaders who practiced this perversion of Israel’s covenant tithe. Christ’s condemnation of legalistic tithing was absolute,
“Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel” (Matthew 23:23-24)!
Kelly: True. The context was “matters of the law” and was addressed to “you, scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites.”
Shriver: In His relationship with Israel, God intended the tithe to be an avenue to blessing. The religious manipulators of Jesus’ day turned the blessing into burden. Instead of expressing faithfulness to God—and oneness of heart with God for ministry and the poor—the tithe became little more than a means to satisfy “religious obligations.” Such satisfaction leads to pride (Luke 18:9-12) and, in the end, restricts giving. After all, once our “obligation” is satisfied, what more could God want? It’s no wonder Jesus so strongly denounces legalistic tithing.
Yet, how easily the sin of the Pharisees can become our sin too!
Kelly: Very good.
Shriver: Effective ministry requires money—money that comes from God’s people. Believers need to give—both for their own sake and the sake of the Kingdom. Since they need to give, we need to preach about giving. When we do, however, we must be careful not to turn blessing into burden.
Kelly: Very good.
Shriver: We must refuse to preach “tithing as legalism.” So what’s the alternative?
Kelly: The alternative is the truth as taught by the Holy Spirit to the Church after Calvary. And that does not include tithing.
Shriver: Tithing as worship!
Kelly: Text please.
Shriver: In Scripture, “tithing as worship” was practiced prior to both the establishment of “tithing as covenant” and the perversion of “tithing as legalism.” The principle of “tithing as worship” is “pre-Law.” It’s established in Genesis 14:17-24 where Abram gives a tenth of his plunder to Melchizedek, King of Salem.
Kelly: Texts please. Genesis 14:17-24 does NOT tell us that (uncircumcised) Abram tithed “as worship.” In fact it does not tell us WHY Abram tithed. Since he was born and raised in Babylon where tithing existed, it is possible that he tithed for a different reason. Many commentaries suggest that an Arab tradition or law of the land controlled the 90% of 14:21. You simply cannot add to God’s Word and conclude that Abram either gave freely or in obedience to God.
Shriver: Melchizedek, in turn, blesses Abram.
Kelly: Any king-priest of Abram’s day would have done the same thing after receiving tithes from spoils of war.
Shriver: Hebrews 7:1-10 defines the significance of these acts declaring that it is the superior who blesses the inferior and the inferior who pays tithes to the superior.
Kelly: The purpose of Hebrews is not to teach the Church to tithe. It uses tithing as a vehicle to prove that Jesus has replaced the Aaronic priesthood. The tithing “commandment in the law” from 7:5 was “of necessity changed” in 7:12 and that “change” was its “annulment of the commandment going before” in 7:18. While 7:18 refers to all statutes relating to the Aaronic priesthood, it must also include the statute of tithing found in Numbers 18.
Shriver: “Tithing as worship,” then, is first an act by which we acknowledge that God is both our superior (the Sovereign Lord) and the source of all blessing.
Kelly: You are twisting God’s Word to make it say what you want it to say. The “we” of Genesis 14 was not the church.
Shriver: But “tithing as worship” does more than acknowledge God. It expresses our personal allegiance to Him. We see this in Genesis 28:10-22. Here, God reveals himself to Jacob in a dream. In response, the patriarch vows, “the Lord shall be my God…and of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you.” For Jacob, the “tithe as worship” became a natural expression of his decision to follow the God of His Fathers.
Kelly: Shame on you. You again twist and pervert God’s Word by conveniently omitting the key “if” of verse 20. The schemer Jacob was telling God what to do! This tactic is unchristian. Far from “worship,” Jacob was black-mailing God and you are joining in his deception by twisting this Scripture!
Shriver: In the same way, the “tithe as worship” becomes an almost instinctive way for us to express our allegiance to the God of our Salvation.
Kelly: Texts please.
Shriver: A third, and critical, element of “tithing as worship” is thanksgiving. “Tithing as worship” expresses overflowing gratitude towards God.
Kelly: Texts please. The first Levitical tithe was cold hard Law and was commanded whether one was grateful or not. A second festival tithe was for rejoicing but you do you teach that tithe and you do not eat it in the streets of Jerusalem.
Shriver: It breaks free from guilt as the motivation for giving.
Kelly: Texts please.
Shriver: Its ultimate focus is the condition of one’s heart—not the percentage of one’s income.
Kelly: Texts please.
Shriver: On the topic of percentages, I find the words of John H. Walton and Andrew E. Hill to be practical. They write, “How are we to show our gratitude to God other than by giving back a portion?
Kelly: O.K. so far.
Shriver: If 10 percent was considered an acceptable portion by God as an expression of gratitude then, why should we view it any differently today?
Kelly: Texts please. The first Levitical tithe was cold hard law – not gratitude – like taxes today. The government does not care for gratitude.
Shriver: We might consider 10 percent as a benchmark just as we consider 15 percent a benchmark for tipping. The extent of the customer’s gratitude and appreciation is demonstrated in the size of the tip.
Kelly: You cannot compare a cold hard law with a freewill choice.
Shriver: It would be considered the ultimate rudeness or the consummate insult to leave no tip at all.
Kelly: The merchants and tradesmen such as carpenters, fishermen and tentmakers gave no tithe at all; they gave freewill offerings. Why not follow this example?
Shriver: So it is to God if we return no portion to him. In addition, there are occasions when the situation calls for a contribution exceeding the benchmark” (Old Testament Today; Zondervan: 2004, 270-271).
Kelly: You are mixing Law and Grace and reintroducing the thought of Malachi after rejecting it earlier.
Shriver: Again it must be said—ultimately, “tithing as worship” isn’t about percentage of income.
Kelly: It has no biblical support.
Shriver: It’s about the overflow of one’s heart. 2 Corinthians 8:5 is clear. When we first give ourselves to the Lord, any act of giving pleases him—whether above or below the “benchmark.” “For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have” (2 Corinthians 8:12).
Kelly: You are playing games with God’s Word again. Second Corinthians is NOT discussing tithing. It is discussing freewill generous sacrificial giving – the kind of giving which propelled the early church. Paul and Jewish Christians knew very well that tithes could not come from Gentiles or from pagan lands and did not teach tithing.
Shriver: How then, can we preach the tithe? First, we recognize that “tithing as covenant” has no direct relevance to New Testament believers. Second, we acknowledge that “tithing as legalism” is just plain sin—both for those who practice it and those who preach it.
Kelly: Correct. Stick to the simple truth. Merely saying “tithes PLUS offerings” reaches into the realm you just rejected.
Shriver: Only the principle of “tithing as worship” remains. That’s the tithing we can preach!
Kelly: No, it does not remain; it never existed except in the Old Covenant festival tithe which was EATEN. You have no texts to preach this.
Shriver: “Tithing as worship” is our opportunity to acknowledge that God is God. He is ruler over our lives. He is the source of every blessing we enjoy.
Kelly: You can do that without teaching error.
Shriver: More than that, “tithing as worship” expresses our allegiance to God in a very personal and concrete way. And finally, “tithing as worship” manifests a heart overflowing with thanksgiving towards God.
Kelly: Sounds good, but it is still unbiblical. The SDAs make the same kind of argument to prove Saturday Sabbath observance to worship and honor God.
Shriver: With this in mind, perhaps we should be less concerned with whether people tithe and more concerned with why they tithe.
Kelly: This totally ignores the true biblical definition and purpose of the tithe.
Shriver: Ultimately, tithing isn’t about percentage of income or money in the plate. It’s about worship!
Tithing as worship—I think that will preach!
Kelly: Preach it as your theory. Be sure to tell your congregation there are no texts to validate it. I would appreciate an extended in-depth dialog.
There are now at least 7 SBC theologians who are writing against tithing and for grace giving. In May 2011 the SBC will publish Perspectives on Tithing, Four Views. The false doctrine is being exposed.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Friday, February 18, 2011
Rebuttal of sbcimpact Chris Johnson
Sbcimpact
http://sbcimpact.org/2010/10/10/melchizedek-priests-and-a-more-perfect-tithe/
by Chris Johnson
Johnson: Israel deemed a tithe as the picture of worth springing forth from the hands of its people.
Kelly: No. The holy tithe sprang fort from the hands of God as miraculous increase from His holy land.
Johnson: The quality and definition of a tithe did not so much come to rest in the accumulation of a fixed number, even as this was the expression used by Moses to maintain a Levitical Priesthood…and this mechanism supplied a nation, as well as created support for the poor.
Kelly: This is an erroneous shift in an already erroneous theology among Southern Baptists who teach that the tithe was a tenth of all increase (which they will not defend). In reality the tithe was only a tenth of the increase of food from inside God’s holy land which God had increased and not man.
Johnson: Yet even as a tithe can be revealed in a numerical factor,…the essence of a tithe sprang forth as an expression from the hands. Hands, expressed by ten fingers, giving all and yielding a perfect work as spelled out by God.
Kelly: This is flowing nonsense which totally ignores the biblical definition and use of the word “tithe.” It is accompanied by no texts whatsoever.
Johnson: I am reminded of the Apostle Paul’s expression to Timothy….1 Timothy 2:8 “Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension”…. Holy hands,..all ten fingers, representing full obedience to the effort of living a holy life in the midst of God’s people and the world.
Kelly: This is incredibly naïve. Muslims and Buddhists stretch forth their hands in worship also. Again you have no text connecting “hands” with “tithe.” In reality no tithe could come from defiled pagan dust or from defiled unclean Gentiles. The Temple would not accept tithes into it from outside Israel and Paul certainly would not teach Gentiles to tithe, especially after the events of Acts 15.
Johnson: Romans 3:19-27
Kelly: These texts are not discussing tithing. Why are they quoted? First, the “law” of Romans 3:1-18 includes Isaiah and Psalms. Second, the definite article is not in the Greek in verse 20. “The Law” which condemned Jews was God’s total revelation in the Old Testament. “Law” as a principle which condemned Gentiles was found in nature and conscience. By “the law” and by “law” all were guilty before God (3:19-20). And the “righteousness of God” is revealed apart from the law principle (3:21). The fact that sinful man must be saved by a righteousness outside of the law proves that law fulfilled its purpose (3:27-28).
Johnson: Romans 8:2-4
Kelly: This is not discussing tithing either. Why is it quoted? “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death” is a reference to the Law of Christ, the Law of Love and the New Covenant.
Johnson: Why Is Understanding a Tithe So Important
First of all, the inspiration to tithe was born before the advent of the Levitical Priesthood.
Kelly: Tithing was practiced all around Mesopotamia – along with idolatry, worship of the heavens, child sacrifice and temple prostitution. The mere existence of something old and widespread does not make it an eternal moral principle. The question SBC authors will not approach is: ‘Why did Abram (not Abraham) tithe?’ The answer could just as easily be because he tithed in Babylon. Most likely he tithed because it was the Semitic law of the land to give tithes of spoils of war to one’s local king-priest. The Bible does not say that Abram freely chose to tithe.
Johnson: Tithing…. this expression of perfect giving from our hands, was expounded upon by Moses concerning Melchizedek. Abraham’s first impulse was to honor a higher Priest, as was Noah when he set foot outside the Ark, sacrificing from every clean animal and every clean bird…..
Kelly: This is not validated with scripture. You have changed what you are attempting to prove into a fact.
Johnson: Genesis 8:20
Kelly: Noah was acting as his own priest. This does not teach tithing.
Johnson: Only stiff necked people need to be reminded of apportioned giving.
Kelly: This does not teach tithing. Tithes were only accepted from farmers and herdsmen living inside Israel. It never applied to craftsmen, traders and teachers living in the cities. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers.
Johnson: Only a stiff necked people would not understand that the spread of the Gospel and the formation of the body of Christ were from house to house.
Kelly: The OT tithe was never used for mission work to convert non-Hebrews. There is no precedent.
Johnson: … new covenant, eclipsing and doing away with an older one that had met its match with death.
Kelly: Tithing is nowhere taught in the New Covenant to the Church after Calvary. Period.
Why Is This Principle of Faithful Giving So Important Today
Johnson: … week over week the excitement builds as the new sanctuary project comes into focus.
Kelly: You have left your topic of tithing. The OT Temple was built and maintained by freewill offerings. Again there is no precedent for tithing.
Johnson: You see,…the art of building bigger temples most often forces a poor hermeneutic. The SBC was almost deceived by poor instruction from various leaders in 1895, as “storehouse” giving was brought to the floor of the convention. The convention came out better at the end of the day as she rejected an alluring contemporary hermeneutic of New Testament “storehouse” giving. She came out better, because she did not retreat into the death of the Law, but she pressed on, remaining faithful to honor her only Priest and King, Jesus Christ.
My question for you today…. What do you teach your congregation concerning a tithe? Do you retreat back into the Law just a little while you justify certain projects?
Share the solid principles you teach with respect to understanding a “tithe”.
Kelly: It appears that the author of this article, a SBC pastor, thinks tht the SBC should have never eventually adopted “storehouse” tithing as an apportionment of ten per cent.
1. stephen fox says:
October 11, 2010 at 4:43 am
Chris: It would be interesting to see if Ken Ezell will invite you to the NAMB to share this conviction, these questions with his trustees; then later with the SBC Megachurch pastors who some say are now running the SBC.
Ask them if this Principle carries over to CP giving; especially for a group of churches that articulate bloggers like Howell Scott of FromLaw2Grace blog are discussing. Howell thinks it could be the unraveling of the SBC.
My point is you have put it out there strongly for individuals and congregations. Now take it to the Denominational hierarchy and do it boldly.
2. Chris Johnson says:
October 11, 2010 at 8:53 am
Brother Stephen,
Most of the leaders within the SBC movement will find it hard to disagree with the biblical context of tithing. It is finding the context that is important. In the current American landscape,…the problems arise when the enticement of larger complexes mix with personal aspirations of a single pastor. Then as I have stated,…the hermeneutic from clear biblical doctrines become abandoned for a jaunt down yet another path. A teacher and fellow church member many years ago in Texas, Daniel Vestal, has been enticed to abandon a clear hermeneutic for overseers (God’s responsibility for the man) in the church in much the same way that tithing is bantered about by some in the SBC.
Fortunately, the SBC did not succumb to the enticement brought about by leaders in 1895, and have been held at bay now for over 100 years. So …on the record of what “tithing” means, at least in their young history…the SBC has not faltered. My encouragement is that she continue to press on toward a more meaningful commitment to giving with respect to “all”, not a portion.
Blessings,
Chris
3. stephen fox
FTR I did not find much at all in your Intro piece here that my Baptist preacher Dad would have disagreed with on tithing.
4. David Rogers
Do you want to give a summary of what happened in 1895, and save me the time of doing the “Google” research?
5. Jeremy says:
I really like this post! I was wondering if you had any additional sources that comment on the 10-fingered aspect? The tithe did obviously exist before the Law, but as a linguist I can’t help but favor the origin of our word “tithe” as being “a tenth”.
That being said, I think we are to give all, not just a tenth (which is why I liked your post). The New Testament believers demonstrated a total change in the course of their lives, and clearly showed total commitment both in the giving of their properties and of their lives.
… 100% commitment, not just 10%.
6. Chris Johnson
The New York Times reported this concerning the convention in 1895 which can be found at http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=FA0D15FC3C5811738DDDAB0994DD405B8585F0D3
Of course I’m sure that there is more to the story…..
7. Chris Johnson says:
8. Chris Johnson says:
Resources like Kittel’s Unabridged Greek and other historical reference works reveal to us some fascinating information about how Israel used “hands” to qualify completeness, as well as a system of counting. So, the nation settled on ten’s represented by the fingers on the hands, etc. while other nations and languages settled on other forms for quantifying like the cuneiform tablet system or the duodecimal systems.
In other words,…it was about objects and numbers in these other languages, where in counter distinction we see an interesting and new quality with the perfection of the hands and Israel, making the definition of tithing more than a simple quantifying act…so that tithing is an act of love that is expressed as we use these hands, bringing all that we have to God and to those we serve. That concept of the tithe was there before Israel existed,…but because of their continual failings they were simply given a reminder to follow as an apportionment, where all along they could have given all.
We should never settle for apportionment in our teachings. God’s people have all things in common….as they choose to follow Christ.
9. Jeremy says:
October 12, 2010 at 8:11 am
Thank you! Ever since I started seminary I’ve been asking, “Why can’t they teach us this stuff in Sunday School?” Things like this help put the Bible back into its original context and add new light and deeper meaning.
I know how hot the debate can get when you talk about contextualizing the Scripture, but the more I learn, the more I realize just how much of that we’ve already done.
I thought last night, as my tithing paradigm was shifting, that having a commonly understood straightforward teaching turned on its head like this must be what the Pharisees experienced with Jesus.
… I’m begging pastors to teach this! It will be more easily accepted than the 10% sermon (harder to do though…). But hey, if people shoot for 10% and hit 2%, imagine where they’d land if they aim at 100%. Maybe that’s where that 80/20 rule comes from…
http://sbcimpact.org/2010/10/10/melchizedek-priests-and-a-more-perfect-tithe/
by Chris Johnson
Johnson: Israel deemed a tithe as the picture of worth springing forth from the hands of its people.
Kelly: No. The holy tithe sprang fort from the hands of God as miraculous increase from His holy land.
Johnson: The quality and definition of a tithe did not so much come to rest in the accumulation of a fixed number, even as this was the expression used by Moses to maintain a Levitical Priesthood…and this mechanism supplied a nation, as well as created support for the poor.
Kelly: This is an erroneous shift in an already erroneous theology among Southern Baptists who teach that the tithe was a tenth of all increase (which they will not defend). In reality the tithe was only a tenth of the increase of food from inside God’s holy land which God had increased and not man.
Johnson: Yet even as a tithe can be revealed in a numerical factor,…the essence of a tithe sprang forth as an expression from the hands. Hands, expressed by ten fingers, giving all and yielding a perfect work as spelled out by God.
Kelly: This is flowing nonsense which totally ignores the biblical definition and use of the word “tithe.” It is accompanied by no texts whatsoever.
Johnson: I am reminded of the Apostle Paul’s expression to Timothy….1 Timothy 2:8 “Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension”…. Holy hands,..all ten fingers, representing full obedience to the effort of living a holy life in the midst of God’s people and the world.
Kelly: This is incredibly naïve. Muslims and Buddhists stretch forth their hands in worship also. Again you have no text connecting “hands” with “tithe.” In reality no tithe could come from defiled pagan dust or from defiled unclean Gentiles. The Temple would not accept tithes into it from outside Israel and Paul certainly would not teach Gentiles to tithe, especially after the events of Acts 15.
Johnson: Romans 3:19-27
Kelly: These texts are not discussing tithing. Why are they quoted? First, the “law” of Romans 3:1-18 includes Isaiah and Psalms. Second, the definite article is not in the Greek in verse 20. “The Law” which condemned Jews was God’s total revelation in the Old Testament. “Law” as a principle which condemned Gentiles was found in nature and conscience. By “the law” and by “law” all were guilty before God (3:19-20). And the “righteousness of God” is revealed apart from the law principle (3:21). The fact that sinful man must be saved by a righteousness outside of the law proves that law fulfilled its purpose (3:27-28).
Johnson: Romans 8:2-4
Kelly: This is not discussing tithing either. Why is it quoted? “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death” is a reference to the Law of Christ, the Law of Love and the New Covenant.
Johnson: Why Is Understanding a Tithe So Important
First of all, the inspiration to tithe was born before the advent of the Levitical Priesthood.
Kelly: Tithing was practiced all around Mesopotamia – along with idolatry, worship of the heavens, child sacrifice and temple prostitution. The mere existence of something old and widespread does not make it an eternal moral principle. The question SBC authors will not approach is: ‘Why did Abram (not Abraham) tithe?’ The answer could just as easily be because he tithed in Babylon. Most likely he tithed because it was the Semitic law of the land to give tithes of spoils of war to one’s local king-priest. The Bible does not say that Abram freely chose to tithe.
Johnson: Tithing…. this expression of perfect giving from our hands, was expounded upon by Moses concerning Melchizedek. Abraham’s first impulse was to honor a higher Priest, as was Noah when he set foot outside the Ark, sacrificing from every clean animal and every clean bird…..
Kelly: This is not validated with scripture. You have changed what you are attempting to prove into a fact.
Johnson: Genesis 8:20
Kelly: Noah was acting as his own priest. This does not teach tithing.
Johnson: Only stiff necked people need to be reminded of apportioned giving.
Kelly: This does not teach tithing. Tithes were only accepted from farmers and herdsmen living inside Israel. It never applied to craftsmen, traders and teachers living in the cities. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers.
Johnson: Only a stiff necked people would not understand that the spread of the Gospel and the formation of the body of Christ were from house to house.
Kelly: The OT tithe was never used for mission work to convert non-Hebrews. There is no precedent.
Johnson: … new covenant, eclipsing and doing away with an older one that had met its match with death.
Kelly: Tithing is nowhere taught in the New Covenant to the Church after Calvary. Period.
Why Is This Principle of Faithful Giving So Important Today
Johnson: … week over week the excitement builds as the new sanctuary project comes into focus.
Kelly: You have left your topic of tithing. The OT Temple was built and maintained by freewill offerings. Again there is no precedent for tithing.
Johnson: You see,…the art of building bigger temples most often forces a poor hermeneutic. The SBC was almost deceived by poor instruction from various leaders in 1895, as “storehouse” giving was brought to the floor of the convention. The convention came out better at the end of the day as she rejected an alluring contemporary hermeneutic of New Testament “storehouse” giving. She came out better, because she did not retreat into the death of the Law, but she pressed on, remaining faithful to honor her only Priest and King, Jesus Christ.
My question for you today…. What do you teach your congregation concerning a tithe? Do you retreat back into the Law just a little while you justify certain projects?
Share the solid principles you teach with respect to understanding a “tithe”.
Kelly: It appears that the author of this article, a SBC pastor, thinks tht the SBC should have never eventually adopted “storehouse” tithing as an apportionment of ten per cent.
1. stephen fox says:
October 11, 2010 at 4:43 am
Chris: It would be interesting to see if Ken Ezell will invite you to the NAMB to share this conviction, these questions with his trustees; then later with the SBC Megachurch pastors who some say are now running the SBC.
Ask them if this Principle carries over to CP giving; especially for a group of churches that articulate bloggers like Howell Scott of FromLaw2Grace blog are discussing. Howell thinks it could be the unraveling of the SBC.
My point is you have put it out there strongly for individuals and congregations. Now take it to the Denominational hierarchy and do it boldly.
2. Chris Johnson says:
October 11, 2010 at 8:53 am
Brother Stephen,
Most of the leaders within the SBC movement will find it hard to disagree with the biblical context of tithing. It is finding the context that is important. In the current American landscape,…the problems arise when the enticement of larger complexes mix with personal aspirations of a single pastor. Then as I have stated,…the hermeneutic from clear biblical doctrines become abandoned for a jaunt down yet another path. A teacher and fellow church member many years ago in Texas, Daniel Vestal, has been enticed to abandon a clear hermeneutic for overseers (God’s responsibility for the man) in the church in much the same way that tithing is bantered about by some in the SBC.
Fortunately, the SBC did not succumb to the enticement brought about by leaders in 1895, and have been held at bay now for over 100 years. So …on the record of what “tithing” means, at least in their young history…the SBC has not faltered. My encouragement is that she continue to press on toward a more meaningful commitment to giving with respect to “all”, not a portion.
Blessings,
Chris
3. stephen fox
FTR I did not find much at all in your Intro piece here that my Baptist preacher Dad would have disagreed with on tithing.
4. David Rogers
Do you want to give a summary of what happened in 1895, and save me the time of doing the “Google” research?
5. Jeremy says:
I really like this post! I was wondering if you had any additional sources that comment on the 10-fingered aspect? The tithe did obviously exist before the Law, but as a linguist I can’t help but favor the origin of our word “tithe” as being “a tenth”.
That being said, I think we are to give all, not just a tenth (which is why I liked your post). The New Testament believers demonstrated a total change in the course of their lives, and clearly showed total commitment both in the giving of their properties and of their lives.
… 100% commitment, not just 10%.
6. Chris Johnson
The New York Times reported this concerning the convention in 1895 which can be found at http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=FA0D15FC3C5811738DDDAB0994DD405B8585F0D3
Of course I’m sure that there is more to the story…..
7. Chris Johnson says:
8. Chris Johnson says:
Resources like Kittel’s Unabridged Greek and other historical reference works reveal to us some fascinating information about how Israel used “hands” to qualify completeness, as well as a system of counting. So, the nation settled on ten’s represented by the fingers on the hands, etc. while other nations and languages settled on other forms for quantifying like the cuneiform tablet system or the duodecimal systems.
In other words,…it was about objects and numbers in these other languages, where in counter distinction we see an interesting and new quality with the perfection of the hands and Israel, making the definition of tithing more than a simple quantifying act…so that tithing is an act of love that is expressed as we use these hands, bringing all that we have to God and to those we serve. That concept of the tithe was there before Israel existed,…but because of their continual failings they were simply given a reminder to follow as an apportionment, where all along they could have given all.
We should never settle for apportionment in our teachings. God’s people have all things in common….as they choose to follow Christ.
9. Jeremy says:
October 12, 2010 at 8:11 am
Thank you! Ever since I started seminary I’ve been asking, “Why can’t they teach us this stuff in Sunday School?” Things like this help put the Bible back into its original context and add new light and deeper meaning.
I know how hot the debate can get when you talk about contextualizing the Scripture, but the more I learn, the more I realize just how much of that we’ve already done.
I thought last night, as my tithing paradigm was shifting, that having a commonly understood straightforward teaching turned on its head like this must be what the Pharisees experienced with Jesus.
… I’m begging pastors to teach this! It will be more easily accepted than the 10% sermon (harder to do though…). But hey, if people shoot for 10% and hit 2%, imagine where they’d land if they aim at 100%. Maybe that’s where that 80/20 rule comes from…
Monday, December 27, 2010
First Baptist, New Castle, Ind
First Baptist, New Castle, Ind
Pastor Jerry Ingalls, 12-26-2010
http://jerryingallsblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/giving-your-treasures-covenant-renewal.html
Ingalls: We are going to start the covenant renewal by making a covenant with God to be generous with the material blessings He has provided for us in our lives.
Kelly: Are you attempting to place the New Covenant Church under the Old Covenant? According to Exodus 19:5-6 the Gentiles and Church never were under that Covenant.
Ingalls: Acts 2:42-47
Kelly: (2:43) The apostles’ doctrine did not include tithing to them. It was illegal before Calvary and not practiced by or commanded to the Church afterwards. (2:44-45) God did not command the early church to live communally and the event was not repeated. (2:46) Since the Jewish Christians continued to worship in the Temple and were “zealous of the Law” (21:20-21), they likely continued to support the Temple system with any tithes and offerings.
Ingalls: “We each must be willing to allow the Holy Spirit to probe into the inner chambers of our hearts to illumine the true state of our loyalties.
Kelly: Then study this doctrine with intensity with your church and leave no stone unturned.
Ingalls: THE MOTIVATION OF OUR GIVING IS GRATITUDE FOR GOD'S CHRISTMAS GIFT!
Kelly: That was only true of free-will giving. Tithes of food from inside God’s holy land did not involve gratitude. They were stone cold hard LAW like taxes are to us.
Ingalls: We do not give in order to be right with God! The Bible teaches in 2 Corinthians 8:9 …
Kelly: You freely switch from quoting tithing texts to quoting freewill giving texts. This is poor hermeneutics. There is a difference.
Ingalls: We give all that we have out of sheer gratitude for the indescribable Gift of peace with God through the Son of God, Jesus Christ!
Kelly: True only of freewill giving principles.
Ingalls: THE MOTIVATION OF OUR GIVING IS A DEEPER RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD!
Kelly: Never true for tithing.
Ingalls: Regarding giving of our treasures, God gave a very clear command in the Old Testament.
Kelly: Not to “us.” The Old Covenant with over 600 commands was only given to Old Covenant national Israel.
Ingalls: Leviticus 27:30
Kelly: (1) Verse 34 limits this only to Israel. (2) "A tithe [a tenth] of everything from the land” is correct. (3) “it is holy to the LORD" is only true if it comes from inside God’s HOLY land. Tithes could not come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside Israel. Period.
Ingalls: In the Old Covenant, giving was managed by a detailed and thoroughly examined commandment …
Kelly: Yes, Numbers 18. (1) Only food from inside Israel, (2) only to Levite servants to the priests, (3) priests only received one tenth of one per cent, (4) tithe recipients could not own or inherit land in Israel and (5) only to support the OT Levites and priests.
Ingalls: … to give 10% of all that God had provided.
Kelly: Wrong. Only food miraculously increased by God inside His holy land. Money was required for head taxes and vows but never for tithes.
Ingalls: Luke 11:42
Kelly: You ignore the first rule of hermeneutics. See also Mt 23:23. (1) Context is “matters of the law” before Calvary. (2) Addressed to “you, scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites” who “sit in Moses’ seat” (Mt 23:2-3) as interpreters of the Law. (3) Before Calvary, therefore still in Old Covenant context. (4) Not to the Church or Gentiles. (5) Jesus did not accept tithes. And (6) no church obeys Jesus by collecting tithes of garden herbs.
Ingalls: I do not believe that Jesus removes the practice of tithing as some would debate, but He fulfills it
Kelly: (1) The covenant supported by tithing was removed. (2) The Temple they worked in was removed. (3) The Levite servants to the priests were removed. (4) The priests who received 1% were removed. (5) Preachers now own land which is contrary to tithing laws.
Ingalls: I want to take this statement [about the Sabbath] and apply it to the purposes of tithing because the same principle that Jesus Christ applies to the fulfillment of one aspect of the Law applies to the entire Law:
Kelly: According to Galatians 3:10-13, those under one part of the Law are under the entire law.
Ingalls: Tithing was instituted to set us free
Kelly: No. Tithing was instituted to support Levite workers and priest ministers who could not own land in Israel per Numbers 18:21-28.
Ingalls: Jesus rebukes the Jewish religious leaders of the first century because they had twisted their observance of the Law
Kelly: How very true. He was not speaking to the New Covenant church. He was discussing “mattes of the law” in Mt 23:23.
Ingalls: Jesus removed the stumbling blocks by fulfilling the Law through grace!
Kelly: According to Eph 2:13-17 and Col 2:13-17 the “stumbling blocks” included all laws which separated Jews from Gentiles, including tithing and Sabbath observance. He returned both to the Abrahamic covenant of grace.
Ingalls: Here it is: Tithing flows out of the heart of God for man
Kelly: No. Not “for man” – only for the Hebrew man who was a food producer living inside God’s HOLY land of Israel. God never expected holy tithes to come off defiled pagan Gentile land.
Ingalls: Luke 21:1-4 poor widow
Kelly: The poor widow was giving a sacrificial freewill offering. She was not paying a tithe.
Ingalls: Jesus is not canceling the call to tithe; rather He is intensifying it to the extreme.
Kelly: No texts to validate this.
Ingalls: THE MOTIVATION OF OUR GIVING IS TO DEVOTE OURSELVES TO GOD'S KINGDOM!
Kelly: No. It is in response to Christ’s freewill sacrificial gift to us. And it is in response to sermons encouraging us to become soul winners.
Ingalls: 1 Chronicles 22:5
Kelly: Read 1 Chronicles 23 to 26. The Levites and priests who received tithes were also political workers for the king. They must have also worked many other jobs because they were skilled in many crafts.
Ingalls: The stones of the house of the LORD are the people saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ!
Kelly: Since both the NT Temple and priesthood consist of individual believers, then tithing makes no sense. We do not tithe to ourselves.
Ingalls: David was told he could not build the house of the LORD, but he devoted himself to investing his time, treasures, and talents to building it;
Kelly: Old Covenant tithes could not be used for Temple or building construction or maintenance. David gave freewill offering.
Ingalls: 2 Chronicles 31:4-5
Kelly: Why did you quote this? If proves (1) that Solomon’s Temple had no storage rooms for tithes and (2) that Hezekiah erred when he commanded the people to bring the tithes to Jerusalem. Read verses 15-19. The majority of the tithes were shipped back into the Levitical cities where they belonged and were needed for food. Nehemiah 10:37b-38 is greatly ignored today.
Ingalls: 2 Corinthians 8:2-4
Kelly: Again you switch back and forth between OT tithing texts and NT freewill giving texts as if you do not know the difference.
Ingalls: Study Malachi 3:8-12. What is significant about this passage? How does this apply to the individual disciple in regards to the testimony of the Church to the nations? Are you living in fulfillment of this promise? If not, what is preventing you from beginning today?
Kelly: (1) The significance of Malachi is its position under the Law as in Mal 4:4; Lev 27:34 and Num 18:21-28. The priests of 1:6-13; 2:1-10 and 2:13-to-end were guilty of stealing the tithe and had been cursed.
(2) It has no relevance to New Covenant Christians. OT tithes were never used for evangelism of Gentiles and there is no precedent.
(3) Christians are not supposed to attempt to obey Old Covenant Law and ignore better New Covenant laws.
(4) Nobody tithes today. Paul warned of placing yourself under the Law in Galatians 3:1-5.
Ingalls: Study 2 Corinthians 9:6-14.
Kelly: These are sound post-Calvary freewill giving principles blessed by the Holy Spirit after Calvary for the Church.
Ingalls: How are you doing with financial stewardship?
Kelly: If YOU have a small staff and many “tithers,” YOU have the most to gain from teaching “tithing.”
Ingalls: In what areas of your life do you feel you are being either obedient or disobedient to God's call for financial stewardship and generosity?
Kelly: Do you teach that the first whole Levitical tithe should go to servants of the OT priests per Num 18:21-24 and Neh 10:37b-38? Do you own land contrary to Numbers 18? Are you among the poorest of the land as required of tithe recipients?
Ingalls: Find the Scriptural references to support your beliefs and self-assessments and then discuss with a mentor or accountability partner to help you take the next steps.
Kelly: Yes. In context and you “rightly divide” the Word according to its covenant.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Pastor Jerry Ingalls, 12-26-2010
http://jerryingallsblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/giving-your-treasures-covenant-renewal.html
Ingalls: We are going to start the covenant renewal by making a covenant with God to be generous with the material blessings He has provided for us in our lives.
Kelly: Are you attempting to place the New Covenant Church under the Old Covenant? According to Exodus 19:5-6 the Gentiles and Church never were under that Covenant.
Ingalls: Acts 2:42-47
Kelly: (2:43) The apostles’ doctrine did not include tithing to them. It was illegal before Calvary and not practiced by or commanded to the Church afterwards. (2:44-45) God did not command the early church to live communally and the event was not repeated. (2:46) Since the Jewish Christians continued to worship in the Temple and were “zealous of the Law” (21:20-21), they likely continued to support the Temple system with any tithes and offerings.
Ingalls: “We each must be willing to allow the Holy Spirit to probe into the inner chambers of our hearts to illumine the true state of our loyalties.
Kelly: Then study this doctrine with intensity with your church and leave no stone unturned.
Ingalls: THE MOTIVATION OF OUR GIVING IS GRATITUDE FOR GOD'S CHRISTMAS GIFT!
Kelly: That was only true of free-will giving. Tithes of food from inside God’s holy land did not involve gratitude. They were stone cold hard LAW like taxes are to us.
Ingalls: We do not give in order to be right with God! The Bible teaches in 2 Corinthians 8:9 …
Kelly: You freely switch from quoting tithing texts to quoting freewill giving texts. This is poor hermeneutics. There is a difference.
Ingalls: We give all that we have out of sheer gratitude for the indescribable Gift of peace with God through the Son of God, Jesus Christ!
Kelly: True only of freewill giving principles.
Ingalls: THE MOTIVATION OF OUR GIVING IS A DEEPER RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD!
Kelly: Never true for tithing.
Ingalls: Regarding giving of our treasures, God gave a very clear command in the Old Testament.
Kelly: Not to “us.” The Old Covenant with over 600 commands was only given to Old Covenant national Israel.
Ingalls: Leviticus 27:30
Kelly: (1) Verse 34 limits this only to Israel. (2) "A tithe [a tenth] of everything from the land” is correct. (3) “it is holy to the LORD" is only true if it comes from inside God’s HOLY land. Tithes could not come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside Israel. Period.
Ingalls: In the Old Covenant, giving was managed by a detailed and thoroughly examined commandment …
Kelly: Yes, Numbers 18. (1) Only food from inside Israel, (2) only to Levite servants to the priests, (3) priests only received one tenth of one per cent, (4) tithe recipients could not own or inherit land in Israel and (5) only to support the OT Levites and priests.
Ingalls: … to give 10% of all that God had provided.
Kelly: Wrong. Only food miraculously increased by God inside His holy land. Money was required for head taxes and vows but never for tithes.
Ingalls: Luke 11:42
Kelly: You ignore the first rule of hermeneutics. See also Mt 23:23. (1) Context is “matters of the law” before Calvary. (2) Addressed to “you, scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites” who “sit in Moses’ seat” (Mt 23:2-3) as interpreters of the Law. (3) Before Calvary, therefore still in Old Covenant context. (4) Not to the Church or Gentiles. (5) Jesus did not accept tithes. And (6) no church obeys Jesus by collecting tithes of garden herbs.
Ingalls: I do not believe that Jesus removes the practice of tithing as some would debate, but He fulfills it
Kelly: (1) The covenant supported by tithing was removed. (2) The Temple they worked in was removed. (3) The Levite servants to the priests were removed. (4) The priests who received 1% were removed. (5) Preachers now own land which is contrary to tithing laws.
Ingalls: I want to take this statement [about the Sabbath] and apply it to the purposes of tithing because the same principle that Jesus Christ applies to the fulfillment of one aspect of the Law applies to the entire Law:
Kelly: According to Galatians 3:10-13, those under one part of the Law are under the entire law.
Ingalls: Tithing was instituted to set us free
Kelly: No. Tithing was instituted to support Levite workers and priest ministers who could not own land in Israel per Numbers 18:21-28.
Ingalls: Jesus rebukes the Jewish religious leaders of the first century because they had twisted their observance of the Law
Kelly: How very true. He was not speaking to the New Covenant church. He was discussing “mattes of the law” in Mt 23:23.
Ingalls: Jesus removed the stumbling blocks by fulfilling the Law through grace!
Kelly: According to Eph 2:13-17 and Col 2:13-17 the “stumbling blocks” included all laws which separated Jews from Gentiles, including tithing and Sabbath observance. He returned both to the Abrahamic covenant of grace.
Ingalls: Here it is: Tithing flows out of the heart of God for man
Kelly: No. Not “for man” – only for the Hebrew man who was a food producer living inside God’s HOLY land of Israel. God never expected holy tithes to come off defiled pagan Gentile land.
Ingalls: Luke 21:1-4 poor widow
Kelly: The poor widow was giving a sacrificial freewill offering. She was not paying a tithe.
Ingalls: Jesus is not canceling the call to tithe; rather He is intensifying it to the extreme.
Kelly: No texts to validate this.
Ingalls: THE MOTIVATION OF OUR GIVING IS TO DEVOTE OURSELVES TO GOD'S KINGDOM!
Kelly: No. It is in response to Christ’s freewill sacrificial gift to us. And it is in response to sermons encouraging us to become soul winners.
Ingalls: 1 Chronicles 22:5
Kelly: Read 1 Chronicles 23 to 26. The Levites and priests who received tithes were also political workers for the king. They must have also worked many other jobs because they were skilled in many crafts.
Ingalls: The stones of the house of the LORD are the people saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ!
Kelly: Since both the NT Temple and priesthood consist of individual believers, then tithing makes no sense. We do not tithe to ourselves.
Ingalls: David was told he could not build the house of the LORD, but he devoted himself to investing his time, treasures, and talents to building it;
Kelly: Old Covenant tithes could not be used for Temple or building construction or maintenance. David gave freewill offering.
Ingalls: 2 Chronicles 31:4-5
Kelly: Why did you quote this? If proves (1) that Solomon’s Temple had no storage rooms for tithes and (2) that Hezekiah erred when he commanded the people to bring the tithes to Jerusalem. Read verses 15-19. The majority of the tithes were shipped back into the Levitical cities where they belonged and were needed for food. Nehemiah 10:37b-38 is greatly ignored today.
Ingalls: 2 Corinthians 8:2-4
Kelly: Again you switch back and forth between OT tithing texts and NT freewill giving texts as if you do not know the difference.
Ingalls: Study Malachi 3:8-12. What is significant about this passage? How does this apply to the individual disciple in regards to the testimony of the Church to the nations? Are you living in fulfillment of this promise? If not, what is preventing you from beginning today?
Kelly: (1) The significance of Malachi is its position under the Law as in Mal 4:4; Lev 27:34 and Num 18:21-28. The priests of 1:6-13; 2:1-10 and 2:13-to-end were guilty of stealing the tithe and had been cursed.
(2) It has no relevance to New Covenant Christians. OT tithes were never used for evangelism of Gentiles and there is no precedent.
(3) Christians are not supposed to attempt to obey Old Covenant Law and ignore better New Covenant laws.
(4) Nobody tithes today. Paul warned of placing yourself under the Law in Galatians 3:1-5.
Ingalls: Study 2 Corinthians 9:6-14.
Kelly: These are sound post-Calvary freewill giving principles blessed by the Holy Spirit after Calvary for the Church.
Ingalls: How are you doing with financial stewardship?
Kelly: If YOU have a small staff and many “tithers,” YOU have the most to gain from teaching “tithing.”
Ingalls: In what areas of your life do you feel you are being either obedient or disobedient to God's call for financial stewardship and generosity?
Kelly: Do you teach that the first whole Levitical tithe should go to servants of the OT priests per Num 18:21-24 and Neh 10:37b-38? Do you own land contrary to Numbers 18? Are you among the poorest of the land as required of tithe recipients?
Ingalls: Find the Scriptural references to support your beliefs and self-assessments and then discuss with a mentor or accountability partner to help you take the next steps.
Kelly: Yes. In context and you “rightly divide” the Word according to its covenant.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Tuesday, November 30, 2010
Reply to Change Worth Making, 11-3--2010
http://changeworthmaking.wordpress.com/
CWM: It is incumbent upon any man asserting any truth to be able to biblically defend that truth, and do so in a manner that is not unbecoming of the honest student of God’s Word.
Kelly: Amen, amen, amen.
CWM: While I have rarely preached on the subject over the last few years, I have at this place sought to stand up for this principle.
Kelly: This is a half truth and still a total lie. Your last statement says that you teach tithing to all new members!
CWM: Primarily because I have a personal resentment toward any insinuation that preachers who teach the tithe are less than honest in their ministry, or are disingenuous, or should be labeled as a false teacher.
Kelly: Most are “less than honest because they will not seriously study the subject and diaalog with us about it.” You are dishonest by deleting my posts.
CWM: While some may disagree with our conclusions about the teachings of the text, it is irresponsible to imply that all preachers who teach the tithe to their people are dishonest with their motives, ignorant about the scriptures or are somehow not on the up and up.
Kelly: “Somehow not on the up and up is my conclusion” – including and especially YOU.
CWM: Now that being said, I once again, and probably for the last time (Lord willing), want to explain the principle of the tithe rightly divided and clearly proclaimed.
Kelly: Good riddance. You have not made any sense up to now.
CWM: 1.) The Definition of the Tithe. First of all, when we are dealing with the Biblical text of the “tithe” we must not fall for the bait and switch. We must see it’s plain simple definition. The Biblical word, “tithe”, in Hebrew, Greek, English, Latin, and Piglatin speaks expressly of one-tenth, or 10%.
Kelly: YOU are the one who has made the “bait and switch.” You have changed the Bibilical CONTEXT of the tithe for a non-biblical context. What are your motives? Why have you attempted to change the obvious biblical usage of the word “tithe”?
CWM: Ten percent of mashed potatoes is a “tithe” of mashed potatoes. Ten percent of all of the left handed footballs in the world, is a “tithe” of all the left handed footballs in the world. Ten percent of all the dill pickles in the United States is a “tithe” of all the dill pickles in the United States. I think you get the point. In order to rightly understand the concept, you must stick with the clear meaning of the word.
Kelly: You have just DISPROVEN your own point! The Bible does not speak of “mashed potatoes,” “left handed footballs” or “dill pickles.” God’s Word always speaks of FOOD which has only been increaded within His own HOLY land of Israel.
CWM: The problem is that the opponents of the tithe principle do not do that. They attempt to use God’s word and their own dictionary.
Kelly: Our own “dictionary” consists of 16 texts from God’s Word which describe the CONTENTS of the tithe as ONLY FOOD which God has miraculously increased from inside Holy Israel. Biblical tithes could not come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside Israel. Why do you not try to refute that?
CWM: While the word for “tithe” speaks of an amount, they continually want to tie to a “medium”. They demand that the tithe is always tied to “flocks, fruits, herds, produce, grain, etc.” While the word deals with a percentage, they want it to deal with produce. Whatever the motive, they seem to very legalistically see the tithe concept tied expressly to a medium when that is simply not the case.
Kelly: We do not “demand” our defihition. God’s Word LIMITS it to what we see from studying His Word. You would place blinders on parishones and tell them to listen to you instead of the Word.
CWM: This is another example of what I mean when I say, we do not use the law to teach the tithe, it is they who use the law to avoid it.
Kelly: Excuse me, but the definition of the word “tithe” from Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Malachi and Matthew MUST be the definition of the Law since those passages are all under the Law. You would never win this kind of argument in an honest uncensored debate.
CWM: The fact is that the word is speaking of the “amount of a medium“, not the “amount AND medium.” It is the legalistic approach that demands that the definition of the word include the medium of whatever context it is nestled in.
Kelly: It is the legal definition given to the word “tithe” by the Law of which it is commanded and enforced. Go into a grocery store and ask for a “tenth.” The clerk will then ask you “A tenth of what.” When God’s OT workforce, the Levites, asked for a “tenth,” the people knew that it was a “tenth of food” from God’s HOLY land as the Law defined. They did not bring money or food from Gentile lands.
CWM: For example, their favorite passage of scripture to tear apart; Malachi 3:8 “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. “ Note what the scripture does not say. The scripture does not say that they were giving “nothing”. The rebuke of Israel was not that they weren’t giving something, the rebuke was that they weren’t giving the right “percentage.” I find it strange that were the tithe tied to the medium, the Lord did not specify which medium it was that they were holding back.
Kelly: This is plain stupid! The text you stopped in front of says “… that there may be FOOD in my house” and the following texts refer to “grasshoppers” and fields of FOOD. Clearly the tithe was always only FOOD.
CWM: The fact is that His rebuke was a rebuke of the amount of their giving not the medium of their giving.
Kelly: Nonsense. Read the texts and let them tell you what they are talking about: Mal 3:10-12.
CWM: Furthermore, 10 percent is 10 percent, before the law, during the law, and after the law. Whatever else may be said, 10 per cent has not changed mathematically.
Kelly: “Travel” means the same whether it is travel by foot, horse, train or airplane. The word itself does not explain what kind of travel. Tithe before the Law was a pagan spoils of war tithe in obedience to the law of the land. Tithe during the law was defined by the law as a holy tithe from a holy land. There is no tithing after the law because both the Temple and priesthood are now within the believer. Even Jews today do not tithe because there is no Temple or priesthood.
CWM: Now I have not addressed the “compulsion” to tithe yet, merely that the word tithe means 10 percent, and ten percent alone, regardless of medium, and regardless of dispensation.
Kelly: Do you honestly see no difference between spoils of war and food from God’s HOLY land?
CWM: 2.) The Dispensation of the Tithe. The next question that we must deal with is the “when” of the tithe. For the sake of clarity I am going to leave the Mosaic Law out of this.
Kelly: Yes, of course. Leave out the 16 texts which describe the CONTENTS of the HOLY tithe from Leviticus to Luke. That is dishonest.
CWM: Of course we are given the example of Abraham giving 10 percent of the spoils of war to Melchizedek long before the Mosaic law was ever given.
Kelly: It was actually a pre-circumcized Abram who had learned tithing while in Babylon as part of pagan worship.
CWM: Now those who reject this as any form of compulsion quickly point to the medium of the tithe to say it has nothing to do with us. Once again, that’s a bait and switch discussion.
Kelly: It was a form of compulsion – pagan law of the land which required tithes of spoils of war to one’s local king-priest. You are the one ignoring the facts. What do you think was happening in Gen 14:21? The law of the land was involved in the conversation. If the 90% was controlled by pagan tradition, so was the 10%.
CWM: While we want to talk about the “tithe” of the treasure, they want to talk about the “kind of the treasure, or the source of the treasure.”
Kelly: The first rule of hermeneutics is context.
CWM: Now whatever else may be said, had Abraham had ten thousand bucket fulls of chicken, he would have given Melchizedek 10 percent. Had Abraham had 4o million U.S. dollars, He would have given Melchizedek a tithe of that too. The Bible says very plainly that Abram “gave him tithes of all.” (uh – hmm – amount, not medium)
Kelly: No, read your Bible. It says that Abram “gave the tenth of the spoils” in Hebrews 7:4. (uh-hmmm – amount of the medium)
CWM: Let’s not miss the example given. We have the High Priest of God receiving a “tenth” of the increase of Abraham, the “Friend of God” Prior to the law, and not under any legal compulsion. Freely given without hesitation.
Kelly: The Bible does not say that Abram “freely gave” anything. You have changed God’s Word. Why didn’t Abram give a tithe of what he received from Pharoah in Genesis 12?
CWM: What then does that have to do with now? Hebrews 7:8 – “And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.” Hebrews 7:8 is post law, and under grace.
Kelly: Hebrews 7:8 As far as the Jewish Christians in Judea were concerned around AD65, they were still tithing to the Temple system per Acts 21:20-21 because they were all “zealous of the law.” The Episele to the Hebrews was written to wean them from the Law. Any OT tithe or offering was considered a gift to God (Christ).
You keep ignoring the very palin teaching of Hebrews 7:12-18. The law of tithing (from 7:5) “muct be changed” (7:12) and that “change” was the “annulment of the commandment going before” (of tithing from 7:5) per 7:18. Why do you tithe teachers never attempt to explain 7:10-18? Sounds dishonest to me.
CWM: …Yet here in Hebrews 7:8, the writer, (Luke in my opinion) explains the difference between the earthly priests and our Great High Priest. In his discourse concerning Christ being our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, and not after the order of the Levites, expresses the fact that “here, men that die receive tithes” referencing the law, and the Old Covenant. “but there he receiveth them of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.” “There” being reference to priestly order of Melchizedek which comes to our Great High priest Jesus Christ, of which it is clearly taught that He that is living is still receiving “tithes”. (amounts, not mediums)
Our Great High Priest, “post law,” separate from the Levitical compulsion is pictured for us as being receptive to the “tithes” of increases.
Kelly: You would make a great Ebionite. The Jewish Christians of Jerusalem, Acts 15 and Acts 21 evntually rejected Paul completely and set up their own narrow-minded legalistic church which survived for several centuries. They would have certaily rejected a Gentile such as Luke. Again you ignore the logic of 7:12-18.
CWM: 3.) The Dedication of the Tithe. There is a difference between a law and a principle. While we are not under the law of the Mosaic system, we are clearly under the authority of all Biblical principles. A principle is a concept, a system of thought, a fundamental idea. The Old Testament (even apart from the law) pictures for us “principles” to learn. The Apostle Paul explained that those things which were written aforetime were written for our learning.
Kelly: So now you are going to tell us exactly what ARE and what ARE NOT Bible principles.
CWM: The primary problem with those people who argue with the tithe, do so from the standpoint of law, and legality.
Kelly: Bill Clinton said that Southern Baptists teach that oral ls sex is not really sex. The judge found him to be a liar and fined him and removed his credentials as a lawyer.
We define “tithe” from Leviticus to Matthew 23:23 the way its hearers, its recipients (Hebrews under the Law), would have defined the word. You will not accept that plain fact.
CWM: They have rightly said that there is no “legal compulsion” in scripture for the New Testament Christian to tithe. THEY ARE RIGHT! There is no legal compulsion for the New Testament Christian to be in the practice of giving 10% of his income to the Lord, through the church.
Kelly: Wow! Why are you wasting your time on this blog?
CWM: Teaching the tithe rightly understood has nothing to do with “legal complusion”, but legal compulsions are not the only “compulsions” in the Bible. We are compelled by examples. We are compelled by patterns, We are compelled by Principles. Because there is no legal compulsion does not mean that there is no compulsions at all! Because there is not a legal compulsion to tithe, does not mean that there are not other compulsions within the text that lead us and direct us to do so.
Kelly: Why don’t you repeat the same line six different ways?
CWM: The example of Baptism carries with it all of the authority needed to practice immersion as the only Biblical method to accept!
Kelly: Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists might disagree with you. Does that mean your example could be wrong about tithing also?
CWM: The example of the disciples meeting on the first day of the week is enough authority all by itself to compel us to meet on Sundays.
Kelly: Wrong again. Sunday does not replace the OT Sabbath and does not carry any compulsion with it. It is a freewill choice.
CWM: The principles of praying, praising and preaching, are all throughout the Bible, and are authoritative principles that formulate the structure, and substance of each, yet there are no spelled out laws.
Kelly: Moral principles are found within the heart of un-reprobate man. Giving is a principle; giving ten per cent is not. Worshipping is a principle; worship on a particular day of the week is not.
CWM: Christians have the example and lesson of the Friend of God tithing to the High Priest of God, before and after the law.
Kelly: Who are you to filter out what Abram did by faith and what he did by compulsion? Are we to copy Abram and go to Egypt during a famine? Are we to copy Abram and lie about our wife being our sister? Are we to copy Abram and tell God to let his blessing come throgh a concubine’s son? If you are giving permission to tithe pagan spoils of war because Abram learned that in Babylon, then go right ahead.
CWM: Christians have the principle of 10 percent, being expressed as the hearts desire of God throughout the scriptures.
Kelly: Where “throughout the Scriptures”? These are the same Scriptures which defien the CONTENT of the tithe as only FOOD from God’s HOLY land and nowhere else!
CWM: Christians have the simple definition of the word and concept. Now all of that being said, “to knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
Kelly: You have proven nothing about the tithe being an eternal moral principle.
CWM: 4.) The Disagreement with the Tithe. I do not want to impune the motives of every person on planet earth that genuinely disagrees with me. Some just do not see what I am saying, and as Paul said, “let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” That’s just fine. If I can talk you into it, someone else can talk you out of it. When the Lord talks you into it, you’re there!
Kelly: So now you begin to “impune motives.”
CWM: Some however, just simply do not want to tithe. It’s too much. They don’t like giving that much money “to the church.”
Kelly: Some have pressing medical needs, children to feed, utility bills to pay, etc. And I am talking about a lot of very poor who have been “tithing” for denerations and have not been blessed. You would rather they ignore 1st Timothy 5:8 and do without essentials so the church can have its share first.
CWM: They have a lifestyle that would have to be downsized in order for them to practice tithing. They are accustomed to a certain level of living and tithing infringes upon that. Their problems are not textual, their problems are deeper than that.
Kelly: Hmmmm. Sounds like a lot of rich preachers fit this description while many of those they suck the blood out of do without. Ever heard of generous sacrificial giving motivated by the love of God and the desire to see souls saved for God’s kingdom?
CWM: Some assert that the tithe is an “undue burden.” They will always, and I mean always attempt to use a “health issue” or “medicine need” or “food need” as the primary target against those who teach the tithe, with accusations of heartlessness, or spiritual brutality, or carelessness or whatever they want to say.
Kelly: If you equate the tithe with the “firstfruits” then you are guilty, guilty, guilty. Shame on you. Biblical tithes were never the same as “firstfruits.” Deu 26:1-4; Neh 10:35-38.
CWM: Of course they do so not understanding the spiritual purpose of the tithe, which I haven’t even gotten in to yet, and won’t here for time and space.
Kelly: The purpose fo the frist Levitical tithe was to support the Levites and priests. It was cold, hard LAW. The second festival tithe had a spiritual aspect but it reminds us that the Levites were to remain part of the poor of the land.
CWM: But I will say this. Ten percent is not the “live or die” question that most of these men want to make it. I have learned first hand, that I cannot afford, NOT to tithe. The Lord makes my 80+% (after tithe and offering) go farther for my family of 6, than 94-95% seems to. The “live or die” argument is the last line of defense for those who do not like the tithe. More often than not, that argument is intended to impune the teacher, rather than disagree with the tithe.
Kelly: Now you are making things up so you can sound intelligent with your reply. Sounds very legalistic to me. Why not just follow the “equality” principle of 2nd Cor 8:12-15?
CWM: While I have not exhausted my full defense of the principle, I have exhausted my time allotted for posting this article. Gone over it actually. Lord willing, I am done with this subject. If I had my druthers, I’d much rather see people give their hearts to Jesus, than worry about how much money people are giving to the Lord through the church. I’ve never worried about it before, so I don’t plan on starting now. I will however continue to teach this principle to new and growing believers as the Lord gives me opportunity. When I realized the difference that it made in my life it was a wonderful change worth making.
Kelly:
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
CWM: It is incumbent upon any man asserting any truth to be able to biblically defend that truth, and do so in a manner that is not unbecoming of the honest student of God’s Word.
Kelly: Amen, amen, amen.
CWM: While I have rarely preached on the subject over the last few years, I have at this place sought to stand up for this principle.
Kelly: This is a half truth and still a total lie. Your last statement says that you teach tithing to all new members!
CWM: Primarily because I have a personal resentment toward any insinuation that preachers who teach the tithe are less than honest in their ministry, or are disingenuous, or should be labeled as a false teacher.
Kelly: Most are “less than honest because they will not seriously study the subject and diaalog with us about it.” You are dishonest by deleting my posts.
CWM: While some may disagree with our conclusions about the teachings of the text, it is irresponsible to imply that all preachers who teach the tithe to their people are dishonest with their motives, ignorant about the scriptures or are somehow not on the up and up.
Kelly: “Somehow not on the up and up is my conclusion” – including and especially YOU.
CWM: Now that being said, I once again, and probably for the last time (Lord willing), want to explain the principle of the tithe rightly divided and clearly proclaimed.
Kelly: Good riddance. You have not made any sense up to now.
CWM: 1.) The Definition of the Tithe. First of all, when we are dealing with the Biblical text of the “tithe” we must not fall for the bait and switch. We must see it’s plain simple definition. The Biblical word, “tithe”, in Hebrew, Greek, English, Latin, and Piglatin speaks expressly of one-tenth, or 10%.
Kelly: YOU are the one who has made the “bait and switch.” You have changed the Bibilical CONTEXT of the tithe for a non-biblical context. What are your motives? Why have you attempted to change the obvious biblical usage of the word “tithe”?
CWM: Ten percent of mashed potatoes is a “tithe” of mashed potatoes. Ten percent of all of the left handed footballs in the world, is a “tithe” of all the left handed footballs in the world. Ten percent of all the dill pickles in the United States is a “tithe” of all the dill pickles in the United States. I think you get the point. In order to rightly understand the concept, you must stick with the clear meaning of the word.
Kelly: You have just DISPROVEN your own point! The Bible does not speak of “mashed potatoes,” “left handed footballs” or “dill pickles.” God’s Word always speaks of FOOD which has only been increaded within His own HOLY land of Israel.
CWM: The problem is that the opponents of the tithe principle do not do that. They attempt to use God’s word and their own dictionary.
Kelly: Our own “dictionary” consists of 16 texts from God’s Word which describe the CONTENTS of the tithe as ONLY FOOD which God has miraculously increased from inside Holy Israel. Biblical tithes could not come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside Israel. Why do you not try to refute that?
CWM: While the word for “tithe” speaks of an amount, they continually want to tie to a “medium”. They demand that the tithe is always tied to “flocks, fruits, herds, produce, grain, etc.” While the word deals with a percentage, they want it to deal with produce. Whatever the motive, they seem to very legalistically see the tithe concept tied expressly to a medium when that is simply not the case.
Kelly: We do not “demand” our defihition. God’s Word LIMITS it to what we see from studying His Word. You would place blinders on parishones and tell them to listen to you instead of the Word.
CWM: This is another example of what I mean when I say, we do not use the law to teach the tithe, it is they who use the law to avoid it.
Kelly: Excuse me, but the definition of the word “tithe” from Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Malachi and Matthew MUST be the definition of the Law since those passages are all under the Law. You would never win this kind of argument in an honest uncensored debate.
CWM: The fact is that the word is speaking of the “amount of a medium“, not the “amount AND medium.” It is the legalistic approach that demands that the definition of the word include the medium of whatever context it is nestled in.
Kelly: It is the legal definition given to the word “tithe” by the Law of which it is commanded and enforced. Go into a grocery store and ask for a “tenth.” The clerk will then ask you “A tenth of what.” When God’s OT workforce, the Levites, asked for a “tenth,” the people knew that it was a “tenth of food” from God’s HOLY land as the Law defined. They did not bring money or food from Gentile lands.
CWM: For example, their favorite passage of scripture to tear apart; Malachi 3:8 “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. “ Note what the scripture does not say. The scripture does not say that they were giving “nothing”. The rebuke of Israel was not that they weren’t giving something, the rebuke was that they weren’t giving the right “percentage.” I find it strange that were the tithe tied to the medium, the Lord did not specify which medium it was that they were holding back.
Kelly: This is plain stupid! The text you stopped in front of says “… that there may be FOOD in my house” and the following texts refer to “grasshoppers” and fields of FOOD. Clearly the tithe was always only FOOD.
CWM: The fact is that His rebuke was a rebuke of the amount of their giving not the medium of their giving.
Kelly: Nonsense. Read the texts and let them tell you what they are talking about: Mal 3:10-12.
CWM: Furthermore, 10 percent is 10 percent, before the law, during the law, and after the law. Whatever else may be said, 10 per cent has not changed mathematically.
Kelly: “Travel” means the same whether it is travel by foot, horse, train or airplane. The word itself does not explain what kind of travel. Tithe before the Law was a pagan spoils of war tithe in obedience to the law of the land. Tithe during the law was defined by the law as a holy tithe from a holy land. There is no tithing after the law because both the Temple and priesthood are now within the believer. Even Jews today do not tithe because there is no Temple or priesthood.
CWM: Now I have not addressed the “compulsion” to tithe yet, merely that the word tithe means 10 percent, and ten percent alone, regardless of medium, and regardless of dispensation.
Kelly: Do you honestly see no difference between spoils of war and food from God’s HOLY land?
CWM: 2.) The Dispensation of the Tithe. The next question that we must deal with is the “when” of the tithe. For the sake of clarity I am going to leave the Mosaic Law out of this.
Kelly: Yes, of course. Leave out the 16 texts which describe the CONTENTS of the HOLY tithe from Leviticus to Luke. That is dishonest.
CWM: Of course we are given the example of Abraham giving 10 percent of the spoils of war to Melchizedek long before the Mosaic law was ever given.
Kelly: It was actually a pre-circumcized Abram who had learned tithing while in Babylon as part of pagan worship.
CWM: Now those who reject this as any form of compulsion quickly point to the medium of the tithe to say it has nothing to do with us. Once again, that’s a bait and switch discussion.
Kelly: It was a form of compulsion – pagan law of the land which required tithes of spoils of war to one’s local king-priest. You are the one ignoring the facts. What do you think was happening in Gen 14:21? The law of the land was involved in the conversation. If the 90% was controlled by pagan tradition, so was the 10%.
CWM: While we want to talk about the “tithe” of the treasure, they want to talk about the “kind of the treasure, or the source of the treasure.”
Kelly: The first rule of hermeneutics is context.
CWM: Now whatever else may be said, had Abraham had ten thousand bucket fulls of chicken, he would have given Melchizedek 10 percent. Had Abraham had 4o million U.S. dollars, He would have given Melchizedek a tithe of that too. The Bible says very plainly that Abram “gave him tithes of all.” (uh – hmm – amount, not medium)
Kelly: No, read your Bible. It says that Abram “gave the tenth of the spoils” in Hebrews 7:4. (uh-hmmm – amount of the medium)
CWM: Let’s not miss the example given. We have the High Priest of God receiving a “tenth” of the increase of Abraham, the “Friend of God” Prior to the law, and not under any legal compulsion. Freely given without hesitation.
Kelly: The Bible does not say that Abram “freely gave” anything. You have changed God’s Word. Why didn’t Abram give a tithe of what he received from Pharoah in Genesis 12?
CWM: What then does that have to do with now? Hebrews 7:8 – “And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.” Hebrews 7:8 is post law, and under grace.
Kelly: Hebrews 7:8 As far as the Jewish Christians in Judea were concerned around AD65, they were still tithing to the Temple system per Acts 21:20-21 because they were all “zealous of the law.” The Episele to the Hebrews was written to wean them from the Law. Any OT tithe or offering was considered a gift to God (Christ).
You keep ignoring the very palin teaching of Hebrews 7:12-18. The law of tithing (from 7:5) “muct be changed” (7:12) and that “change” was the “annulment of the commandment going before” (of tithing from 7:5) per 7:18. Why do you tithe teachers never attempt to explain 7:10-18? Sounds dishonest to me.
CWM: …Yet here in Hebrews 7:8, the writer, (Luke in my opinion) explains the difference between the earthly priests and our Great High Priest. In his discourse concerning Christ being our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, and not after the order of the Levites, expresses the fact that “here, men that die receive tithes” referencing the law, and the Old Covenant. “but there he receiveth them of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.” “There” being reference to priestly order of Melchizedek which comes to our Great High priest Jesus Christ, of which it is clearly taught that He that is living is still receiving “tithes”. (amounts, not mediums)
Our Great High Priest, “post law,” separate from the Levitical compulsion is pictured for us as being receptive to the “tithes” of increases.
Kelly: You would make a great Ebionite. The Jewish Christians of Jerusalem, Acts 15 and Acts 21 evntually rejected Paul completely and set up their own narrow-minded legalistic church which survived for several centuries. They would have certaily rejected a Gentile such as Luke. Again you ignore the logic of 7:12-18.
CWM: 3.) The Dedication of the Tithe. There is a difference between a law and a principle. While we are not under the law of the Mosaic system, we are clearly under the authority of all Biblical principles. A principle is a concept, a system of thought, a fundamental idea. The Old Testament (even apart from the law) pictures for us “principles” to learn. The Apostle Paul explained that those things which were written aforetime were written for our learning.
Kelly: So now you are going to tell us exactly what ARE and what ARE NOT Bible principles.
CWM: The primary problem with those people who argue with the tithe, do so from the standpoint of law, and legality.
Kelly: Bill Clinton said that Southern Baptists teach that oral ls sex is not really sex. The judge found him to be a liar and fined him and removed his credentials as a lawyer.
We define “tithe” from Leviticus to Matthew 23:23 the way its hearers, its recipients (Hebrews under the Law), would have defined the word. You will not accept that plain fact.
CWM: They have rightly said that there is no “legal compulsion” in scripture for the New Testament Christian to tithe. THEY ARE RIGHT! There is no legal compulsion for the New Testament Christian to be in the practice of giving 10% of his income to the Lord, through the church.
Kelly: Wow! Why are you wasting your time on this blog?
CWM: Teaching the tithe rightly understood has nothing to do with “legal complusion”, but legal compulsions are not the only “compulsions” in the Bible. We are compelled by examples. We are compelled by patterns, We are compelled by Principles. Because there is no legal compulsion does not mean that there is no compulsions at all! Because there is not a legal compulsion to tithe, does not mean that there are not other compulsions within the text that lead us and direct us to do so.
Kelly: Why don’t you repeat the same line six different ways?
CWM: The example of Baptism carries with it all of the authority needed to practice immersion as the only Biblical method to accept!
Kelly: Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists might disagree with you. Does that mean your example could be wrong about tithing also?
CWM: The example of the disciples meeting on the first day of the week is enough authority all by itself to compel us to meet on Sundays.
Kelly: Wrong again. Sunday does not replace the OT Sabbath and does not carry any compulsion with it. It is a freewill choice.
CWM: The principles of praying, praising and preaching, are all throughout the Bible, and are authoritative principles that formulate the structure, and substance of each, yet there are no spelled out laws.
Kelly: Moral principles are found within the heart of un-reprobate man. Giving is a principle; giving ten per cent is not. Worshipping is a principle; worship on a particular day of the week is not.
CWM: Christians have the example and lesson of the Friend of God tithing to the High Priest of God, before and after the law.
Kelly: Who are you to filter out what Abram did by faith and what he did by compulsion? Are we to copy Abram and go to Egypt during a famine? Are we to copy Abram and lie about our wife being our sister? Are we to copy Abram and tell God to let his blessing come throgh a concubine’s son? If you are giving permission to tithe pagan spoils of war because Abram learned that in Babylon, then go right ahead.
CWM: Christians have the principle of 10 percent, being expressed as the hearts desire of God throughout the scriptures.
Kelly: Where “throughout the Scriptures”? These are the same Scriptures which defien the CONTENT of the tithe as only FOOD from God’s HOLY land and nowhere else!
CWM: Christians have the simple definition of the word and concept. Now all of that being said, “to knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
Kelly: You have proven nothing about the tithe being an eternal moral principle.
CWM: 4.) The Disagreement with the Tithe. I do not want to impune the motives of every person on planet earth that genuinely disagrees with me. Some just do not see what I am saying, and as Paul said, “let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” That’s just fine. If I can talk you into it, someone else can talk you out of it. When the Lord talks you into it, you’re there!
Kelly: So now you begin to “impune motives.”
CWM: Some however, just simply do not want to tithe. It’s too much. They don’t like giving that much money “to the church.”
Kelly: Some have pressing medical needs, children to feed, utility bills to pay, etc. And I am talking about a lot of very poor who have been “tithing” for denerations and have not been blessed. You would rather they ignore 1st Timothy 5:8 and do without essentials so the church can have its share first.
CWM: They have a lifestyle that would have to be downsized in order for them to practice tithing. They are accustomed to a certain level of living and tithing infringes upon that. Their problems are not textual, their problems are deeper than that.
Kelly: Hmmmm. Sounds like a lot of rich preachers fit this description while many of those they suck the blood out of do without. Ever heard of generous sacrificial giving motivated by the love of God and the desire to see souls saved for God’s kingdom?
CWM: Some assert that the tithe is an “undue burden.” They will always, and I mean always attempt to use a “health issue” or “medicine need” or “food need” as the primary target against those who teach the tithe, with accusations of heartlessness, or spiritual brutality, or carelessness or whatever they want to say.
Kelly: If you equate the tithe with the “firstfruits” then you are guilty, guilty, guilty. Shame on you. Biblical tithes were never the same as “firstfruits.” Deu 26:1-4; Neh 10:35-38.
CWM: Of course they do so not understanding the spiritual purpose of the tithe, which I haven’t even gotten in to yet, and won’t here for time and space.
Kelly: The purpose fo the frist Levitical tithe was to support the Levites and priests. It was cold, hard LAW. The second festival tithe had a spiritual aspect but it reminds us that the Levites were to remain part of the poor of the land.
CWM: But I will say this. Ten percent is not the “live or die” question that most of these men want to make it. I have learned first hand, that I cannot afford, NOT to tithe. The Lord makes my 80+% (after tithe and offering) go farther for my family of 6, than 94-95% seems to. The “live or die” argument is the last line of defense for those who do not like the tithe. More often than not, that argument is intended to impune the teacher, rather than disagree with the tithe.
Kelly: Now you are making things up so you can sound intelligent with your reply. Sounds very legalistic to me. Why not just follow the “equality” principle of 2nd Cor 8:12-15?
CWM: While I have not exhausted my full defense of the principle, I have exhausted my time allotted for posting this article. Gone over it actually. Lord willing, I am done with this subject. If I had my druthers, I’d much rather see people give their hearts to Jesus, than worry about how much money people are giving to the Lord through the church. I’ve never worried about it before, so I don’t plan on starting now. I will however continue to teach this principle to new and growing believers as the Lord gives me opportunity. When I realized the difference that it made in my life it was a wonderful change worth making.
Kelly:
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Monday, November 22, 2010
Baptist Theologian Thomas Schreiner Disagrees with Tithing
Thomas R. Schreiner, PHD, a theologian at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky since 1997, is on record opposing tithing as a New Covenant doctrine.
Dr. Schreiner earned his M. Div. and Th. M. at Western Conservative Baptist Seminary and his PHD at Fuller Theological Seminary (Baptist). He taught 11 years at Bethel Theological Seminary. He is a Pauline specialist and the author of 11 books and scores of articles.
His recent book, 40 Questions about Christians and Biblical Law, contains the follows excerpts from pages 219-220.
Page 220: "The tithe is irretrievably tied to the old covenant, which is no longer in force."
Page 220: "If tithing were normative today, it is difficult to know what God would require. I have noted above that the amount was not ten percent. ... Most of those who support tithing assume that the amount was ten percent, but Israel clearly paid more than this."
Page 220 regarding Matthew 23:23: "But we can no more take his words as a commendation for tithing today than we can his words about offering sacrifices."
Page 221: "Some of the principles with reference to tithing may apply to believers, but the practice itself is not required."
Page 221: "Even though tithing is not mandated, there is no call in the New Testament to hoard one's possessions or to live selfishly."
Page 221: "Still, the tithe itself is not mandated by Scripture, and Scripture is our rule and authority rather than a tradition that requires believers to tithe."
Dr. Schreiner earned his M. Div. and Th. M. at Western Conservative Baptist Seminary and his PHD at Fuller Theological Seminary (Baptist). He taught 11 years at Bethel Theological Seminary. He is a Pauline specialist and the author of 11 books and scores of articles.
His recent book, 40 Questions about Christians and Biblical Law, contains the follows excerpts from pages 219-220.
Page 220: "The tithe is irretrievably tied to the old covenant, which is no longer in force."
Page 220: "If tithing were normative today, it is difficult to know what God would require. I have noted above that the amount was not ten percent. ... Most of those who support tithing assume that the amount was ten percent, but Israel clearly paid more than this."
Page 220 regarding Matthew 23:23: "But we can no more take his words as a commendation for tithing today than we can his words about offering sacrifices."
Page 221: "Some of the principles with reference to tithing may apply to believers, but the practice itself is not required."
Page 221: "Even though tithing is not mandated, there is no call in the New Testament to hoard one's possessions or to live selfishly."
Page 221: "Still, the tithe itself is not mandated by Scripture, and Scripture is our rule and authority rather than a tradition that requires believers to tithe."
Thursday, November 18, 2010
Reply to Change Worth Making, 11-18-10
Tithing will not cease from our agenda until this false vestige of the Old Covenant law has been purged from our churches. It keeps the New Covenant church in legalism and draws the anathema of Paul in Galatians 1:7-9; 3:1.
Why should we want Ed Young. He is yours. All yours. He merely extends your false tithing theology to its ultimate conclusion. If it is such an important principle for the church, then admit it and join Ed Young. Otherwise admit error and drop it.
Concernng Kenneth Copeland, T.D. Jakes, Paula White, and all of the other prosperity preachers – isn’t it amazing that ALL of these theach tithing” That is where they STARTED going wrong. And do not forget Benny Hinn and John Hagee. Tithing is the leaven of the prosperity gospel and tithing leads to the other false doctrine.
Most preachers who preach 10% are willingly ignorant and do not want to discuss the matter because they would LOSE the argument every time with a knowledgeable Bible scholar.
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“This preacher could say that those who use, the “farmers, herdsman, cattle, sheep, produce, Israel, only arguments” as reasons not to tithe are being legalistic.”
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Incredibly opposite logic! While Genesis alone (before the Law) contains the word “money” 22 times, money is NEVER inclluded in any of the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
While YOU may not use the Law to teach tithing, but almost everybody else does. Take a look at the Baptist Faith and Message and look at the tithing texts used under Stewardship!
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“Those who rightly teach the tithe do not use the law to explain it. It is from those who don’t want to tithe that use the Law to avoid it.”
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Nobody can “rightly teach the tithe.” Abram’s tithe was only from pagan spoils of war in obedience to the law of the land. And Jacob’s tithe was an example of him telling God what to do. You have no valid pre-law or post-law principle for tithing which applies to Christians today. Give it up.
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“For someone to say that since the tithe was only for farmers, and herdsman, Christians have no responsibility to it; is like saying, since everyone in the Bible that gave were wearing tunics, and that’s not us, we shouldn’t be asked to give.”
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Tunics? What are you talking aaout? Farmers and herdsmen did not wear tunics! As a tentmaker working and living in pagan lands, Paul could not and did not teach tithing. You spiritualize the literal Word of God by redefining the tithe. We do not oppose giving. That is your paper tiger. We support generous sacrificial giving which often means MORE than 10%.
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“Too often they cannot discern the difference between a principle and a command.”
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Never can you defend your statement that tithing was/is a universal moral law. You would have the very poorest in society tithe first and do without essential medicine, food and shelter. Shame on you. Scratch 1 Timothy 5:8 out of your Bible.
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“When I preach that God gets the best and we live off the rest, and someone takes issue with that, why is it that no one examines their motives?”
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Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad….
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“Why doesn’t someone want to give God the best and live off the rest?”
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Do you ever read the Bible?
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad…
1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
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“That being said, the entire circus of accusation, and distortion, is a detriment to the Christian ministry.”
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The entire pro-tithing circus of fals doctrine and distortion is a detriment to the Christian ministry. It does not harm those in John MacArthur’s ministry.
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“I’ve preached one series of messages on tithing and stewardship in the last five years. I have no idea who in this church practices tithing. I am not worried about it. We always have enough to do what the Lord leads us to do. I firmly believe that the Lord pays for what He orders.”
………………………………
In other words, YOU do not need to preach and teach tithing. What are you harping about then?
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
SBC Yesterday Blogspot
Why should we want Ed Young. He is yours. All yours. He merely extends your false tithing theology to its ultimate conclusion. If it is such an important principle for the church, then admit it and join Ed Young. Otherwise admit error and drop it.
Concernng Kenneth Copeland, T.D. Jakes, Paula White, and all of the other prosperity preachers – isn’t it amazing that ALL of these theach tithing” That is where they STARTED going wrong. And do not forget Benny Hinn and John Hagee. Tithing is the leaven of the prosperity gospel and tithing leads to the other false doctrine.
Most preachers who preach 10% are willingly ignorant and do not want to discuss the matter because they would LOSE the argument every time with a knowledgeable Bible scholar.
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“This preacher could say that those who use, the “farmers, herdsman, cattle, sheep, produce, Israel, only arguments” as reasons not to tithe are being legalistic.”
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Incredibly opposite logic! While Genesis alone (before the Law) contains the word “money” 22 times, money is NEVER inclluded in any of the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
While YOU may not use the Law to teach tithing, but almost everybody else does. Take a look at the Baptist Faith and Message and look at the tithing texts used under Stewardship!
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“Those who rightly teach the tithe do not use the law to explain it. It is from those who don’t want to tithe that use the Law to avoid it.”
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Nobody can “rightly teach the tithe.” Abram’s tithe was only from pagan spoils of war in obedience to the law of the land. And Jacob’s tithe was an example of him telling God what to do. You have no valid pre-law or post-law principle for tithing which applies to Christians today. Give it up.
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“For someone to say that since the tithe was only for farmers, and herdsman, Christians have no responsibility to it; is like saying, since everyone in the Bible that gave were wearing tunics, and that’s not us, we shouldn’t be asked to give.”
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Tunics? What are you talking aaout? Farmers and herdsmen did not wear tunics! As a tentmaker working and living in pagan lands, Paul could not and did not teach tithing. You spiritualize the literal Word of God by redefining the tithe. We do not oppose giving. That is your paper tiger. We support generous sacrificial giving which often means MORE than 10%.
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“Too often they cannot discern the difference between a principle and a command.”
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Never can you defend your statement that tithing was/is a universal moral law. You would have the very poorest in society tithe first and do without essential medicine, food and shelter. Shame on you. Scratch 1 Timothy 5:8 out of your Bible.
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“When I preach that God gets the best and we live off the rest, and someone takes issue with that, why is it that no one examines their motives?”
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Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad….
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“Why doesn’t someone want to give God the best and live off the rest?”
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Do you ever read the Bible?
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad…
1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
…………………………………….
“That being said, the entire circus of accusation, and distortion, is a detriment to the Christian ministry.”
……………………………………….
The entire pro-tithing circus of fals doctrine and distortion is a detriment to the Christian ministry. It does not harm those in John MacArthur’s ministry.
…………………………………
“I’ve preached one series of messages on tithing and stewardship in the last five years. I have no idea who in this church practices tithing. I am not worried about it. We always have enough to do what the Lord leads us to do. I firmly believe that the Lord pays for what He orders.”
………………………………
In other words, YOU do not need to preach and teach tithing. What are you harping about then?
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
SBC Yesterday Blogspot
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